Doctor Who series 7: The Name Of The Doctor review

Review Simon Brew 18 May 2013 - 20:05

Spoilers! Here are our thoughts on the Doctor Who series 7 finale, The Name Of The Doctor...

This review contains spoilers. Lots and lots of spoilers. Our spoiler-free thoughts are here.

The Name Of The Doctor

"Run you clever boy"

Well, crikey.

When the episode title, The Name Of The Doctor, was first announced, it can't just have been us that seemed to pick up on a fairly sizeable 'so what' emanating from the show's fanbase. For in truth, the Doctor's actual name is a poser that few Doctor Who followers have ever seemed inclined to seriously wrestle with. After all, Star Trek fans know to their cost that asking a question of someone's moniker is likely to be far more interesting than getting the actual answer. Tiberius indeed.

That said, we've mentioned once or twice that we felt Steven Moffat was unlikely to play things straight when it came to this episode proper, and so it proved. In fact, as we'll come to talk about, it might be no understatement to say that he's lobbed a grenade into the past, present and future of Doctor Who. It's not just the Doctor's name now that's the question. It's pretty much his identity as we know it.

Even before we got to the ending, and we'll come to it soon, the episode was intriguing. Because here we got to see the Doctor's final resting place, which is what everything was seemingly leading to. That on the planet of Trenzalore lay the Doctor's tomb. And here, we got to pay it a visit.

Rather impressive it was too. As it turned out, the Doctor's tomb was a familiar beast, as much a grave for the TARDIS as for the Doctor. The leaking TARDIS suddenly looked a lot bigger, and in the middle of it? A tear in the fabric of time. The scar tissue of the Doctor's journeys through time and space. And a visual effect that was about to prove really rather useful.

But let's rewind a little. Because from the start, you could have been forgiven for thinking you'd got the 50th anniversary special instead here, as if someone had pressed the wrong button on some no-doubt highly powered evolution of the BBC's computer system (a BBC Micro, we like to think). Whether it's a fleeting picture or something more substantive, we never tire of seeing the old Doctors that we already know appear in modern Doctor Who. Here, they had as wonderful a role as we've seen in some time (at least until they appeared again later in the episode), and they helped - with some prescience - bring the entire history of the title character into play. If this is what was in store for the episode before the birthday one, heaven knows what we're getting when it's time to really light the candles. It's going to take something to beat the superb opening we got here (one of the best ever to a Who episode, perhaps).

The Name Of The Doctor thus went right back to the origins of Doctor Who, with it being revealed early on that Clara helped William Hartnell's first iteration of the character choose the right TARDIS (try and wrap your head around the time travel permutations of that. We'll lend you Doc Brown's board and chalk if you want). Furthermore, she's been a constant in his life, as we learn through some welcome inserting of Jenna-Louise Coleman into footage of earlier generations of pre-2005 Who (no visuals of Paul McGann, though). All really well done, we thought, right down to the matching of Coleman to the different types of film stock. Credit, as always, to the production team.

What's more, the big question of Clara was pretty much answered up front, even if we had to wait until near the end for the reasoning: she was born to save the Doctor, and there was a good reason for the many, many versions of her (which explains too, in effect, how she could rewrite history in Asylum Of The Daleks, simply by sheer numbers presumably). Those fearing we wouldn't get answers here needn't have worried: we now know the mystery of the character, and it all made sense (in a Doctor Who way). In fact, and credit to Moffat here, pretty much everything made sense. You might not have agreed with the way it was all done, but unlike The Wedding Of River Song, this was an easier, yet no less intriguing, episode to follow. Even if you didn't have a GSCE in Doctor Who.

Those revelations of Clara took early precedence, and not for the first time in this run of episodes, it was a good ten minutes or so before the Doctor himself turned up. And not for the first time either, it was Strax (having a fight in a Glasgow bar, in search of uncharacteristic trouble, and as much fun as always), Vastra and Jenny - the spin-off series in waiting - that proved a more than able support act.

They were joined by River Song too here, a character whose own story felt as if it had reached its natural end come The Angels Take Manhattan. However, her return here was both understated and nicely played (with a haunting, tender exchange between her and the Doctor the highlight, as he told her she was an echo who should have faded). And it might just be her final "Hello Sweetie" we got, as she finally faded down near the end. We weren't sure whether River really needed to reappear, but contrary to our expectation, we're glad she did.

Right near the start though, she was part of the early conference call (was it just us waiting for Harriet Jones to pop up, appreciating that the character is, er, dead?). And what started as a useful device to get some exposition and setup across took a stark turn, as we soon met the apparent foes of the episode, The Whispermen.

If there was a disappointment of The Name Of The Doctor, it was those foes, though, along with The Great Intelligence. The Whispermen first. A sort of anti-Silence in their approach (although similar in tone), they were very creepy, but surprising underused (an odd complaint, perhaps). They also talked in a Zygon-esque whisper that made them barely audible, at various stages reciting rhyming clues as to what's to come, as if on a Doctor Who game show. Visually they worked a treat, and the design of them was excellent. It did feel as though an interesting new monster had been introduced here, and yet popped in the back pocket for later Who.

The one exception: the really well worked moment when Jenny's place at the conference call table was suddenly, tragically ended. Just how good is Catrin Stewart? When she uttered the line "I think I've been murdered", it sent a real chill along our bones. She was unmurdered soon after, of course, so the spin-off plan is hopefully still in place.

Perhaps more eyebrow-raising was the underplaying of The Great Intelligence though. He came and went, in the form of Richard E Grant's Dr Simoen, with surprisingly little drama. This was a particular surprise, given that after his introduction in The Snowmen and subsequent appearance in The Bells Of Saint John, we thought he'd have a far greater role to play in this series (not least given how deeply steeped in Who history The Great Intelligence is). Yet while the focus has been on the mystery of Clara in this run, the element of underlying antagonist was put on the back burner. Thus, while The Great Intelligence had obvious narrative impact, when the brilliant Richard E Grant disappeared into the time rip, we were left with a bit of a "was that it?" moment.

That moment didn't last though, as then we went into several minutes that clearly have major ramifications for Doctor Who. We'd enjoyed the vast bulk of the episode up until the final scene, but this was the kind of jaw dropping finale that Doctor Who hasn't given us for a while (one that be rewound and watched again as soon as the credits rolled). We've keenly felt the absence of cliffhangers this series, but for a tease and a half into the 50th anniversary special, the revelation of John Hurt (albeit sadly spoiled by at least one national tabloid) was a massive one if you never saw it coming. Like us. It was a stunning, internet-breaking piece of narrative rug-pulling.

So let's try and wrap our heads around it, because, bluntly, there's a new Doctor. And already he's hurting our head. Is he the real Doctor, and the one we've been following has been the wrong one? Is he a regeneration of the existing Doctor we didn't know about? At one stage, Clara all but asks the Doctor if he's the eleventh Doctor, and gets the cryptic response "I said he was me, I never said he was the Doctor". Let's just go with the theory he's the real deal for the minute (which is the likely one): if this does make Smith the twelfth Doctor, let's not forget that we've already met the Valeyard in Trial Of A Time Lord. Is that the regeneration count used up then? Unless Hurt is The Valeyard...

Even more intriguingly, Hurt's Doctor is the one who "broke the promise". What promise? Is this where the Time War comes in? What does Clara know, being as she read about its history in Journey To The Centre Of The TARDIS? And, also, how on earth was the reveal of John Hurt kept under wraps? It's a huge ending (like Utopia, but even better), a scream at the telly ending, and a massively impactful moment in the history of Doctor Who (not least something that threatens to make decades of merchandise inaccurate). Oh, and he also said "what I did, I did without choice". What did he do? Again, if you link this to the Time War, are we going to learn just what the Doctor had to do to end it? Considering The Name Of The Doctor answers lots of questions, it didn't half leave us with a whole lot more.

While you're toying with that, one other small thing to consider. Clarence, at the start of the episode (in 1893, the year of The Crimson Horror), knew the location of the Doctor's grave. How did he know that? Not that we expect anyone to ask that right now. There's something much, much bigger to consider. And we're not getting the answer until November. That's just cruel.

The Name Of The Doctor was then, for our money, the most satisfying, brilliant finale in Steven Moffat's run on Doctor Who, the kind of episode you rewatch for fun, as much as to solve mysteries (and we'll be hunting for clues). Much better than The Wedding Of River Song and a real rival to The Big Bang, this was, for large parts, really gripping stuff, surrounded by an air of mystery, and a real sense that something big was going to be revealed. Fortunately, on this occasion, that was very much the case. And while series seven, in both parts, has been a bumpy ride (with Jenna-Louise Coleman's Clara our highlight), Steven Moffat and his team pulled quite a rabbit out at the end. Just brilliant.

Roll on November, then, when the actual 50th anniversary episode picks up the mantle. It feels like a long, long time away. And John Hurt has a lot of questions to dodge in interviews between now and then...

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Superb, wonderful, fabulous and every other word that can perhaps best be summed up by squee! Oh, and everyone that has been complaining on and on and on about it being a disgrace that the 50th anniversary was a single episode and not multi-doctor-rama... maybe a bit of patience before throwing the toys out the pram would be a good idea next time?

What the hell, Moffat?!

Excellent stuff! Internet meltdown ahoy!

That was absolutely bloody brilliant. Best finale ever? And John Hurt... is he the valeyard then?

This was brilliant. JLC talking to William Hartnell. I don't care if it looked like crap it blew me away

Wow, that was incredible, I love endings like that! Can not wait for November, John hurt will be an awesome doctor!

Enjoyed that a lot, and it made much more sense than either of Moffat's previous finales.

Could John Hurt be Paul McGann, aged up, the Doctor that committed double genocide before becoming Christopher Eccleston?

It's gotta be that or the Valeyard, I would think (I wouldn't expect the Valeyard, except they did make a point of mentioning his name).

I have been critical of this series but I hugely enjoyed the episode. Smith nailed it (wonderful stillness); great to see all the old Doctors. Hurt was great. Well done!

Surely they would have just cast Paul McGann if that was the case? I am assuming a future incantation?

Now that's how you do a cliffhanger! I can't wait until November.

If Moff could make more episodes like this one, I'd be delighted.

Too much nonsense for me but the ending was great and I'm gonna assume Hurt is the timewar murdery Doctor. The whole River Song story has me completely lost though.

Fantastic. Seriously, just everything about Roll on November 23rd.

Yes oh yes. That was awesome. All the explanations were totally satisfying! It can be done!

Although are we ever going to find out when "Silence will fall" and who blew up the Tardis at the send of series 5? Not trying to be negative or anything but just wondering...praps that will be integrated into the 50th anniversary special somehow...

But, basically, AWESOME.

The Doctor said that the name we choose is like a promise. As The Doctor, it would imply that his promise is to first do no harm. If the Hurt Doctor has broken that promise it would imply that his first choice was to harm, which would fit in nicely with him being the Time War Doctor. He acted without choice for peace and sanity would sound like a rather apt description of someone being forced to commit a lesser evil for the greater good.

Well, I was intent on hating that episode, seeing as how it was written by the not so genius, Moff, however, I freaking loved it! Even if you despise what Moff has done to Who, there is no way any true Whovian could not have enjoyed all the homages paid to classic Doctor's throughout this episode. The way they were able to incorporate the Pat Troughton walk on, and the brief conversation between Clara and William's Doctor, OMG, genius!!!! So many references made to the Valeyard, who it looks to be, is who the brilliant John Hurt will be playing in the 50th anniversary, I'm in total fanboy meltdown awe.......(Even though we already knew he would be playing a Doctor of some form)

I am one of Steven Moffats biggest criticisers, it's no secret, but I loved this episode. And, at the same time, I hated it. How is that possible? Well, I blame it on the paradox created by Steven making a character who we were only introduced to six months ago, such a pivotal catalyst, in the Doctor's life. If she is so important, I'm glad the mystery about her multi-selves as finally been cleared up, then how come we have never ever seen any other references to her throughout the history of Who? There goes Steven trying to make his time on the show far more "forcefully" important than it actually needs to be. He is re-writing the Who canon, and not always for the better. But as showrunner, he has that right, but be warned Steven, you won't be in this job forever, so take care how you tread, undoing the work of 50 years worth of people's efforts, before yours.

Nevertheless, I still loved it, and found it to be the best of Moffat's episodes, thus far. Thank god he kept the wibbly wobbly telletubby nonsense to himself, for this one. It would have really undermined such a brilliant effort, otherwise. So, let's get to what I really enjoyed about the episode.

The classic Doctor walk-on's. Especially Pat and William. That was humbling. All on screen, all at once, I was practically punching the air with joy, when I saw that.

Strax, the Sontaran continues to be the highlight of any episode he is in. For crying out loud, make him full time companion, already, please. "Surrender your women and your intellectuals". Awesome.

A bit of the early music styling was a throwback to the RTD era Who, great. I loved those themes. They really increased how powerfully emotional the whole Who saga, as been. At least under RTD.

The idea of Trenzalore being the final resting place of both the Dr, and the Tardis. I also liked how they hinted at the Dr being buried in the Tardis, how else?

Hopefully we finally saw all the River Song timeline, tied up, and finished. A nice moment at the end between Matt and Mary Sue. I thought Matt was great, yes, I wasn't impressed with his first few seasons, but this one, he has become a Dr.

A touching moment was the Silurian killing Strax, and then showing remorse, even though I generally dislike the humanising of the Aliens used on the show. Strax is fantastic, such a sad loss, if he is indeed, dead, as we saw in this episode, Jenny died then was brought back, then died again, a recurring theme under Moffat. Characters who just wont stay dead, let's hope Moff as the intelligence to realise, of all the crappy characters he kills then brings back, the rest are all redundant, Strax is the only really good one, so he must be brought back at all costs. How very Moff, though, to permanently kill off the best character in the show.

The mystery of Clara is solved, she created a multitude of "Selves" by entering, how rude, the Doctor, in order to save him. Now we know how she can be the impossible girl, let's hope Moff puts that one to rest. For once, I was suitably satisfied with Moff's resolution, and not a screwdriver in sight.

A few minor quibbles.

If time travelling is possible through dreams and trances, why bother with a Tardis, etc?

River Song returning, yet again. Although she was kept very subdued here, with the in your face sexuality, thank the Time Lord's.

The Whispermen. Steven, I think you should be paying Joss Whedon royalties, because if the Silence weren't direct copies of The Gentlemen, then these creatures, most certainly were.

Conveniently placed "leafs"?????

All in all though, that was kick @ss! A great conclusion to series 7. And I can't wait for the 50th, DT and JH in the same show!!!!!

Now I'm off to stalk Tardinsexy, not. She is flattering herself, but I do hope she reads this because I want her to see that I don't hate Moffat for the sake of it, and I actually really liked this Moff-sode. So, I'm not all bad, babe.

I really enjoyed it but is that because I've been watching it for 25+ years and loved all the nods and resolution? My 7 year old however just turned round and said "It wasn't really exciting".

Awesome great story fantastic to see old doctors but still cannot understand the complete absence of Paul Mcgan

It would appear so.

Same here, I'm still smiling.


>If this does make Smith the twelfth Doctor...

A bit picky, but this was addressed by The Doctor. He's not a "Doctor" despite what the caption said, as our Doctor said he wasn't deserving of the title. So even if Matt Smith was the 12th regeneration, he'd still be the 11th Doctor.

Oh also occurs to me that we might look back on a lot of Moffat's episodes more favourably if he does, in the end, manage to wrap up all his convoluted plots satisfactorily, as PERHAPS, on tonight's evidence, he is actually capable of doing...just a thought.

Ok, here's our theory on John Hurt:

He can't be the first Doctor, as the doctor says the name is a promise, and he broke that promise and so cant call himself it. Therefore the promise, the name, was already chosen and made. If he was before that he could not have broken it.

Ok, so he might be a future Doctor, but then the 13 regens means he would be the next Doctor, robbing the BBC of a new actor for such a short period.

That leaves him appearing somewhere in the timeline we know - and the ONLY time we didnt see him regen was Paul McGann to Chris Eccelstone. Now - Chris Eccelstone, when he mets Rose, is full or remorse for what he did in the Time War, and Rose "saves him" from this.

So... what if, the Time War begins, Paul McGanns doctor is killed in it, regens into JOHN HURT, who does the terrible thing of destorying gallefry and the daleks, dies in the process, regens into Chris Eccelstone, who is a new personality, full of remorse, jumps in the Tardis and flees the time bubble. Wearing the same jacket! (John hurt from the back looked very eccelstone like).

So, that would mean, that the specials would be the Time War with John Hurts Doctor!!

Which would be amazing.

A wonderful piece of misdirection from Steven Moffat! The Name of the Doctor is ultimately not about The Doctor's actual name, but in fact what the John Hurt version of The Doctor did... it wasn't in the name of The Doctor!

A truly wonderful episode from start to finish that seemed to have absolutely everything. 10/10

Silence did sort of fall when all the stars went out ... maybe?

So what was his name then?

Is it a bit of a clue that, as this reviewer noticed, we didn't see Paul McGann's 8th Doctor in the parts where Clara was moving through time. She said she "didn't see that one". All the Doctors, but not the 8th? And he appears to be wearing a costume somewhere between what McGann wears for the audio adventures pictures and Eccleston's ... Hmmm

Praps. Who actually caused the Tardis to explode though? Also who was that voice saying "Silence will fall" anyway...I do hope that all isn't totally swept on the carpet, though I appreciate that only mega-nerds such as myself still care...

I understand why River would love the doctor (most of the companions do) but why does the doctor love River? I'm just asking because the doctor has never been that passionate with any other kisses really.

Its a shame JH isn't younger. We could have him full time.

The cryptic response "I said he was me, I never said he was the Doctor" may mean he's The Doctor(s), as in an amalgamation of lots of them, but not The (single) Doctor

Mmmm, John Hurt? Who he was before he became the Doctor is how I interpreted it? He was John Hurt and then chose his name as The Doctor. Could be wrong mind. Could be a missing regeneration that allows them to reboot his regenerations by going into his own timeline? Great ep, roll on November

I think the whole "silence will fall" conundrum was answered by this episode.

"The silence" we discovered last season, is a religious order set up to ensure that the question "Doctor Who?" is never asked, yes? Because "Silence will fall when the question is asked"...

The answer to the question is the Doctor's name...which led to his tomb being opened and through the actions of the Great Intelligence, the erasure of the Doctor from history and the subsequent undoing of his actions / destruction of half the universe.

So the Silence were trying to prevent that presumably they would've been one of the races destroyed by the actions of The Great Intelligence.

"Silence Falling" was the bit where River and Clara looked up and saw the stars winking out of existence.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Such a good episode- matt smith was brilliant! My favourite scenes was him crying when Clara told him about trenzalore- and also his reaction to Clara rediscovering her memories for a journey to the centre of the tardis. Also, there were se great jokes- the doctor calling the kids daleks, the letter making Clara fall asleep, strax thinking river was a man
The whisper men definitely reminded me of the gentlemen! I agree they didnt really do anything except rhyme threateningly though

I could be wrong but I thought that Hartnell was the first regeneration. Which means that there was a Galifrayan who was born, grew up, had a life and then regenerated and took the name Doctor. So maybe Hurt was that man?

Easier to deduce from the line "The Doctor is a promise, he broke that promise" and "he is me, but he isn't the Doctor" suggests to me that not only is Hurt the same as our hero, but he is not someone who is trying to be the hero. He won't act the same way, he won't always do the right thing, he is kind of like an evil twin, only the same person. That might be a little harsh, if he is the man that killed the timelords and the daleks then he did it for the good of the universe, not for evil gains.

Finally I'll leave you with another quote, from the episode with Starship UK when Eleven is comtemplating brain damaging the star whale to save the humans who had enslaved it "....after that... well I'll find another name, because I won't be The Doctor anymore". Maybe that has already happened? Maybe he temporarily gave up his name because his actions meant he did not deserve it, and he took it back again when he regenerated?

And surely complaining about dodgy special effects in Doctor Who is missing the point somewhat. We've just traded wobbly sets and silly costumes for occasionally naff cgi.

So you're right, it doesn't matter if some of the Forrest Gumping wasn't perfect, it was awesome and that's really all the matters.

Could someone please explain to me who or what the valeyard is please have watched the Doctor since mid 70s is it earlier than this if not it has passed me by and I can't recall it. Also that was crazy didn't see the john hurt/Doctor coming even though the papers said something about it. A great episode and best finale to all the modern Who and some of the previous Who's need a trip in the tardis to get to November now.
Damn you moffatt!!!!!!!!

It was rubbish.

Amazing opening montage. Absolutely terrific ending. I had goosebumps for both. Not too sure about some of the stuff in between. And I'm still unsure about how the Silence fit into it. But it's been a while since Dr Who genuinely moved me, and had me staring wide eyed at the screen. John Hurt's reveal was outstanding. I can't wait for the 50th anniversary. My faith has been restored.

Top Drawer

Paul McGann must feel a bit hard done by, poor chap.

I'm betting John Hurt is either the Other or the Valeyard (considering the latter was referenced by name, it's maybe more likely). Either way there's some catch to it. There's no way they can keep John Hurt as a permenant cast member, so there's going to be some way of explaining it.

Ok, So I think John Hurt is the 9th re-incarnation of the doctor but is not the 9th Doctor because he committed a Double Genocide in the time war. Then he escaped and regenerated into the 9th Doctor AKA Christopher Eccleston which would explain why the 9th Doctor is so full of remorse.

Right, so John Hurt is going to play the REAL 9th doctor (the one Paul McGann regenerated into) and he's the one who fights in the timewar and does whatever he does which goes against the name 'The Doctor'.
Then it would seem that this incarnation was either forgotten about or ignored but infact makes Matt Smiths doctor the last incarnation to have the ability to regenerate before his body count is used up!
One last thing, why wasn't the 8th Doctor used in the old footage? Poor old Paul McGann always gets a raw deal as he is not scheduled to be in the 50th show either.

I thought I saw a Mcgan wannabe, just out of focus, to the right of the camera, walking past Clara.


Far from the best finale, The Big Bang was defo better. The villain sucked, who Clara is didn't have a huge impact but was well done. What his name is was done even better, we were given an explanation as to what his name stood for rather than what it was. The name stood for all the genocide which is why he chose The Doctor instead to run away from his past and what he did, good one Moffat but the overall episode didn't have that finale feel like previous seasons, I guess that will be the 50th anniversary.

Am I the only one that noticed Clara's mystery isn't quite over? River's cryptic comment about the communication link between her and Clara and River and the Doctor, only to say "Spoilers"...Who's Clara's "great" mum?

I still don't really understand the whole River Song deal. The Doctor didn't actually tell her his name, did he?

In the Wedding of River Song, he pretended to...but actually whispered "Look into my eye", so that she could see that he was actually the Teselecta.

So how come by the time of the library she actually knows it? Are we going to see more of her?

I hope not. I like the concept of her character but she gets right on my tits.

Terrific, terrific. Great end to a good half-season ( though I could have done without Rings of Anusol). So what is John Hurt's Doctor? I don't want him to be aged Paul McGann, but remember the notion that the Doctor and the Master CHOSE their names? I guess it's like the former practice of choosing a new name when you become a priest or nun. In that case, can any Tom, Dick or Theta Sigma choose "The Doctor", and with it a certain covenant? Or am I thinking too hard and JH is the amalgam of the Doctor's darkest sides, a la the Valeyard?

Great answering of questions (hated the leaf biz though) and JLC chatting with WH was excellent. Loved all the costume changes across the decades too.

I assume hopefully that the JH doctor bizzo will resolve in November and not be a complete rewrite of everything. If there's one thing Doctor Who should never be about is itself.

So the 50th anniversary episode will probably be Matt Smith vs. John Hurt, with David Tennant pitching in - well, that's a good start!

It was meant to look crap, all part of the charm.

He's the Dr's hidden secret. A former Dr. The one that ended the time war. The one who's actions went against what all the others Dr's stood for. Smith is 12! Great brilliant episode.

Does Steven Moffat have the ability and talent to ret-con his entire tenure and turn it into something serviceable?

I believe I have read that the last incarnation of a time lord is his or her true self - I think it would be too much for him to be the doctor's "true" self. I'm going with the Paul McGann idea.

1) 'The Promise'
The Doctor said that the title of 'The Doctor' was a name he chose, and that it is "a promise". As in, him taking that name is a promise to the universe that he will try to fix things. The JohnHurtDoctor broke that promise, i.e. he did not fix things, he destroyed them, he did not live up to the title of 'Doctor'.
2) "What I did, I did without choice". This is 99% definitely a reference to the genocide he commited in the Time War that killed both Daleks and Time Lords. the guilt of which act still plagues the Doctor.

He is the missing regeneration, between Paul McGann and Christopher Ecclestone. He's the same Time Lord, but not considered by the current Doctor to be one of the Doctors. (due to breaking the promise).

I was worried about the 'real Ninth Doctor' rumours being really lazy writing on Steven Moffat's part. The theory I've got pieced together has calmed me down no end, though.

I think, personally, that John Hurt IS the Ninth. Paul McGann regenerated into him during or before the Time War and this is the Doctor who massacred the Time Lords. Then he regenerated into Ecclestone (now the Tenth by this reckoning), who was so disgusted by his actions that he tried to eliminate this version of himself from his memory. It's a good way of looking at the Doctor's morality and regrets. And it's much better than what I thought would be a "oh, yeah, I used to be John Hurt but forgot aren't I silly?" which I thought Moffat would pull.

I'll put a bigger comment up on my general thoughts later, but this cliffhanger has rejuvenated my faith in Doctor Who. I knew it'd pick up and perhaps it finally has once more!

What? No. He's the secret. The previous incarnation of the Dr who ended the time war and went against what all the other Dr's stood for. Smith is 12 not 11. That's the secret. It was spelt on the screen for u. Introducing John Hurt as the Doctor. Not the Valeyard. he was never a secret!

There's still a good possibility he may just pull that, yet. And anyway, doesn't this mean that MS is the last Dr? Meaning no more Who when he dies?

Simply outstanding, great story, dialogue and a great cliff hanger (all done amazingly in just 45 mins...all other Who writers take note!) and intriguingly leading us towards the 50th anniversary special (is John Hurt the 8th Doc aged by the Time War...and what did he do for his other selves to loathe him so??)....Note to BBC please lock Steve Moffat in a room until he writes all the scripts for Who forever and ever Amen.. :)

Yes but you know Moffat............

WHY ARE YOU ALL WRONG, didn't no one see that how bad that was, and the ending to it was one of the first ending I have ever seen, you do not introduce someone like that saying introducing John hurt as the Doctor. Don't any of you see that this isn't Doctor Who anymore it just isn't, its like star wars without the force and star trek with Kirk and Spock. The last good episode of Doctor Who was the Pandorica, and since then its just been rubbish, have all of you forgotten what Doctor who is and was, are you all blind to see that it has been written by idiots and has changed for the worst, i am absolutely disgraced, and you all should be TOO.

Plus, if MS is 12, that means the end of Dr Who once he dies.

That is what I was thinking and hopefully we will get the "Time War" and to see what that is in all it's glory would "Be Cool"

Oh dear One things for sure , no episode no matter how good will ever please everyone

That's my thoughts. I've not enjoyed this series as much as I'd want to, after the incredible Asylum of the Daleks it kinda went downhill for me. But it's paid off here. This episode was bumpy in places, but its general theme was consistent and Moffat has FINALLY learned how you tie up AND leave loose your threads simultaneously. I had zero faith in his 50th anniversary episode before tonight. Now I think it could be incredible!

U can't please everyone all the time. Never more so than Dr Who fans! ;)

He's not the Valeyard. He's the hidden incarnation thru shame at his actions.

Why did the Tardis explode in the first place? That's the only thing I'm still not getting...

Give me's not a matter of right and wrong (and certainly not a matter of SHOUTY WRONG); it's a matter of opinion. O-p-i-n-i-o-n. Got that? You're entitled to yours, I'm entitled to mine, and the other good folk who've taken the time to post here are entitled to theirs.

Yes that does. Thank you! :)
Though you'd think The Silence would have a permanent presence on Trenzalore so that if the Doctor did show up they'd kick his ass. But I'm happy with that

Here's a thought. What if Doctors 9-11 are a different Time Lord, taking the title from John Hurt's Doctor?

I might be misunderstanding what you are saying but... John Hurt is the actors name...

Up till now I have wondered why River would love the Doctor, given all her life affirming energy and charm. At last Matt has told us that the Doctor is capable of as much passion in return.

john hurt being in this episode was a total surprise since i stay clear from spoilers … i knew he would be in the november episode so that scene was probably shot last … the close up on his face, at least - the rest may have been a body double …

how did they keep it a secret : same as with jenna, asking those who knew not to spoil everybody else's fun and making more than public the fact that he would be in the next episode …

how was the episode ? awesome !

No because there is still one after MS: 12 regenerations, 13 Doctors

No the Doctor gets 12 regenerations that means he gets 13 bodies so the next Doctor will be the last

It's not McGann's fault, but the film really was a dud and completely out of synch with the TV show. Made for different tastes and a different market.

I agree he can't be a future Doctor - as the Doctor wouldn't necessarily know what he looks like after the next regen

There's a comment further down the board that suggests because John Hurt turned his back on the 'promise' of the Doctor's name Smith is still technically the eleventh. And, if the show's still going strong by the time we get to any version of Thirteen, I'm sure they'll cook up a reason to keep him going!

An incarnation we have never heard of until now? And what about Simians reference to the "storm, etc, Valeyard"? If Moff is all he is hyped up to be, not one word of dialogue he writes is a throwaway line, especially not one as important as "Valeyard". Yes, they introduced him as the Doctor, but come on,......Bit convenient, that.

There are 12 regenerations, meaning 13 doctors, not 12. Valeyard comes between 12 and 13.

I count the cast off regen that created DT clone.

Counting the technical regen that created DT clone. He is on his last life, even though we know there was a throwaway line in SJA, yep, one of Moff's, completely negating the long established canon of Who law.

At the time of SitL I always assumed there would be adventures we didn't see, and that still stands even now. Not unsurprising that there was more to their relationship than we saw on screen. If she is his wife, he would have told her. Maybe not in The Wedding of River Song, but somewhere down the line.

Why discount the actual regen that created the DT clone? The Dr said it was a regeneration, he just chose not to change his form, because he liked the current one.

Well you should be ok cause if i following it correctly the dr and her have just said goodbye for the final time (beautifully, i might add) :)

That was really quite brilliant still cant believe how much we got to see, the TARDIS in its natural form the Doctor leaving Gallifrey the Doctors Tomb, I did think we were going to find out Tranzalore was what remained of Gallifrey at one point.
So much to enjoy and a cracking ending, I was gutted when it looked like Jenny had died, thank god the Moff wasn't that cruel!

I guess it doesn't actually matter- - his secret wasn't his name. It was John Hurt.


Because she is hot :) he just fancies her

Everything in the Doctor's present has already happened for River, so presumably she finds out in some way in the Doctors "future"



You are kidding, right?

Watch second season with colin baker, trial of a time lord, it has all your answers

He didn't fully regenerate I like to think if the hand wasn't there he would have turned into Matt Smith there and then, we know the Doctor can die if you interrupt a regeneration so im thinking he can also live if you interrupt a regeneration, that's my theory and im sticking to it!

Notice the Amy's crack shaped crack in the Tardis door window when they landed?

It suggested to me he was the Valeyard.


She got his name in a good man goes to war or the concluding part, written in gallifreyan on his crib, i think

Maybe paul didnt want to do it.

I said this, but everyone is claiming otherwise.

Nope, same market, USA.

I really hope theyre going to show the eighth Doctor some love in the 50th, I don't think we even got a glimpse of him here.

Erm, did you not see Strax reappear mere seconds after Clara stepped into the time-scar?

Were you watching corrie by mistake?

It felt somewhat underwhelmed at the end, because the entire Silence arc ended with a whimper. So the Silence killed the Doctor, in order to save the Doctor and save the universe, and they did so by destroying the universe? And they fixed the Doctor's death so that he wouldn't be able to go to Trenzalore....the place where the Doctor's tomb is, where he died. Doesn't that mean rewriting history? And then the other part of the Question: on Trenzalore where no-one must speak falsely the question will be asked and silence will fall.... well none of that happened. It was a real anti-climax. Then Moffat cheated by having River say it. Apparantly, the greatest secret in the universe which no-one must know, except the wife. And then Clara, Moffat's official Mary Sue now, makes a rather unimpressive sacrifice. And then she's saved and they can go zoom off into time and space together for adventures again. So, that was it? I cared more for Jenny's 'death' and River's goodbye then for Clara's sacrifice. There was no sense of risk or fear, because we don't know Clara well enough (because she has no personal story besides moping about her mother, and her entire life seems to have been revolved around the Doctor: so much for writing independent women, Moffat, like River who was literally born and raised to only ever think about the Doctor) and we don't know what will happen when the question is answered. Why can't he just say it? If his name is Cjisfjisfjs they'll all go 'huh?' and the doors will open. The same with 'Bob'. It doesn't feel like we should really care; only because we're fans of the show. A lot of buildup but a poor execution in the end. Clara is still the weak point in this entire series.

And John Hurt has to be the Doctor before he became the Doctor. It can't be linked to the Time War (although the book Clara found the Doctor's name in was 'History of the Time War' so who knows) because the Doctor chose a new name because of what he'd done, becoming the Doctor, making Hartnell the first Doctor, who stole a TARDIS and ran away, from his guilt? Does that make Doctor Who a story of redemption, or of cowardice? How much does he have in common with the scientist in 'A Town Called Mercy'? He looks more a hypocrite in that episode now.

Essentially John Hurt must be the 'prequel' Doctor. Which suits this episode well: it felt like fanfiction. But it did neatly tie the Doctor's future and past and present together in one eerie setting. But of course, why can't the Doctor go to Trenzalore and why did the TARDIS refuse? Can't cross his own timestream? How can he when he's dead? Why didn't we see future Doctors? Do time cracks or scars present itself with all time travellers? So why didn't that happen with the Master? Or with any other Time Lord? Wouldn't the Weeping Angels or other creatures try to scavenge such temporal energy? Oh, of course, that's why it was locked...

But how did the Intelligence go from Earth to Trenzalore? How did it find Trenzalore? The Doctor erased himself from history... How did it create avatars for himself? How did it transport Jenny, Strax and Vastra to Trenzalore?

I'm getting pretty tired of them too now. In 'A Good Man Goes to War' they were part of a gang of the Doctor's friends to save Amy, but now it feels like they're his only friends. Remember the beginning of 'Pandorica Opens' when all of the characters the Doctor encountered work together to send him a message? Now that wonderful idea has devolved into the Doctor being stalked by these three freaks, who are only there to either raise the stakes, speak exposition or be comic relief.

To say this episode is better than 'Wedding of River Song' is so incredibly wrong. It's not bad, it's still one of the best of season 7 part 2, along with 'Bells of St John' but that goes to show the poor level of this entire half season.

Now I can't help but wonder if this show was really as good as I thought it was, and maybe the mistakes were there all along I just didn't want to see it. Do you see what you're making me do, Moffat? You're still great, but I'm becoming skeptical of your overall plans. This Clara mystery didn't pan out. It was not only predictable, but because you wanted both standalones and a serial arc you ruined both, because you couldn't choose. This episode would've been better had it been a two-parter. This is the third time the Great Intelligence has been underused, first as the snowmen that could manifest by thinking about them, and they just stood there doing nothing, then the Intelligence became the internet (never seen or heard from again) and now the Whispermen, who, like the snowmen, were only invented to be scary and be able to threaten. That's about it. Same effect would've been achieved if Moffat'd given dr Simeon a gun. And then in the end the Intelligence disappeared...and that was it. And he was beaten by a girl by jumping into the vortex after him, who then met a long line of out of focus Doctor Who look alikes or cosplayers.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still psyched about the Anniversary, but Moffat really needs to shake up series 8. Bring back the two-parters. Make Clara matter. Because seriously, how is he going to kill her off now? How could he top these three deaths he's already written for her? Clara fulfilled her purpose. So she really either has to go or become better. And the fact that I'm indifferent to either option makes me sad.

We are just trying to accept it for the new Who beats it as become. If you don't, you will end up hating it, like me.

The great intelligence said, "The Doctor lives his life in darker hues day upon day and he will have other names before the end. Storm, The Beast, The Valeyard". John Hurt could be one of them?! "Not in the name of the doctor".


had me in tears (as so many Moffat written episodes do.

As someone mailed me at the end ... Clara is Ripley

Even if John Hurt's Doctor did something terrible in the Time War, the Doctor's secret, and the answer to the oldest question is, according to Dorium, something the Doctor has been running from "all his life". Should we take that to mean "since he started traveling", or just "since the time war"?

They seem to have made a point of showing his image before though. That's why I hold a vain hope that he will appear in the 50th. I'd be disappointed if it was just DT with MS.

It must be very difficult to get all the actors, due to heir work schedules. But hey, I'm satisfied with DT and JH. And Zygons.

I do hope that when Matt Smith leaves the next Doctor confirms he has no more regenerations, could make it a lot more exciting when he gets into trouble may even change his character a bit as he has to face his own mortality.

The big bang? More like the Big Sh**

Yes. The longer they try to milk this cash cow, the more cliche and unimportant, it becomes. If I was the BBC, I would do the dignified thing and let MS be the last.

They brought The Master back and he had used up all his regenerations in the classic series but still managed a new one from Jacobi to Simm.

Great finale! But what exactly did Clara do to save The Doctor? She jumped into the time stream but. . .

PS -The Doctor's name was revealed, as it has been in previous episodes. His name is Sweetie!!!

Already speculation is rife, I see. Well, contemplate this. This is the biggest milestone in Who history, and, in my opinion the absolutely perfect place to end the show. Let the Dr die with some dignity intact, instead of milking him to obscurity, and then cashing in on his carcass. I know this won't be a popular comment, but think about it, what better way for a send off? Go out with a, pardon the pun, Big Bang. We all know what happened the last time they tried to spin the show out past it's sell by date. Maybe this time they should be a bit more savvy. Let the Dr die, with some grace.

Think of the massive burst in merchandise sales, and the amount of spin off shows they could do? Nothing lasts forever.

I really don't think people should be worried about his regenerations running out. While Doctor Who has a 50 year legacy, it has NEVER paid too much attention to its own lore or logic. How could it? Everyone's just gotten really fixed on this 'thirteen lives' thing.

Us die-hards sometimes just need to remember that this isn't a show made for us and it's not still on TV because of us. It's there because families, children and casual viewers tune in week by week. And they aren't meticulously scanning the continuity for inconsistencies. They won't care if we go beyond 13 without a word, they won't even be aware that it's a big thing. We're eight years into New-Who, so you've got to think that they'll be children watching who won't have been alive when Ecclestone was the Doctor, never mind the Classic Series! They don't care, they just love the show as it comes to them.

Maybe we should all try looking from that perspective. Maybe then we'll enjoy this weird, diverse, inconsistent, contradictory mess of a show that is the most-damn-perfect thing British science fiction has ever produced. Watch it like a kid. It's much easier to love.

The Hurt Doctor. I like double meaning in that.

Indeed I did. was rhetorical, my statement.

Nor Chris.

See, this one is pretty simple to get past. In The Five Doctors, the Timelords grant The Master a new cycle of regenerations for his cooperation in assisting The Doctor in the Death Zone. Now, considering there was a Time War, you'd have thought they'd grant more regenerations to many of the people fighting. I kind of figure that's a pretty easy way to explain away him possibly having more in the future.

On the question of the Doctor using up his 12 regenerations if John Hurt is the real number 9: in Let's Kill Hitler didn't River Song give the doctor her remaining regenerations? Might have been done to give a way of dodging the limit, no?

Galifrey no longer exists.

Sorry if I've missed this in the other posts, but I have two questions:

1. How did River open the door in the episode (I know she said his name) when she wasn't actually 'there'?

2. How does the prophecy fit in:"On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the eleventh, when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a Question will be asked, a question that must never, ever be answered: Doctor Who?"

So, the question was asked, but this wasn't the fall of the eleventh (or was it? I suppose, in a way, it was) - but how does the "No living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" bit fit in? You could say that, in order to save his friends, the Doctor couldn't speak falsely or fail to answer... and yet he did.


Overall, I liked it. Very much.

So none of the other Dr's have ever killed entire races to save others?

The Doctor got all River Song's regenerations in Let's Kill Hitler. We've seen her properly regenerate and the Doctor warned her she can't regenerate after giving all her regeneration energy to him, thats a get out of jail, assuming River regenerated only the 2 on screen times she had 3 incarnations and she gave the Doctor 11 regenerations.

The idea is that he would have been granted them during the Time War, not afterwards.

In who history valeyard took on identity of jack the ripper
Aka duke of "CLARENCE"

It was enjoyable, but my jaw didn't hit the floor. I do agree with one comment I read regarding Clara being a new character that has now become integral to the whole history of Who. I have mixed feelings about that, seemed like a way to big her up (and I do think she's great). The episode didn't hit me to my core for some reason, and usually images of the old doctors always gets me going (so to speak). I hope some of the fine theories below are correct about John Hurt being a past doctor, the real no. 9 (bumping CE etc up by 1), but somehow deliberately blanked out by current doctor. It would be fascinating to have a whole new doctor, however short-lived. Especically if we then get a new one at xmas. I think it was a mistake to show the same old clips twice, it had little impact the second time and just highlighted the rather unconvincing special effects. Was it only PM who was missing? Did we get a glimpse of DT or CE? I can't remember, but one would hope that they might all appear in the 50th. Oh please let it be so.

"So the Silence killed the Doctor, in order to save the Doctor and save the universe, and they did so by destroying the universe?"

My pick is that Silence tried to kill Doctor, not to destroy universe. They just screwed things up and TARDIS blew up. As I understood TARDIS doesn't always take universe with itself when going down.

John Hurt could the First Doctor why did he run away in the first place?

Well, you are wrong as much as we are. That's matter of opinion. While series fifth had a really nice arc going, and I loved it, I personally enjoyed both last and these series, as they tried to do things a little differently. I enjoyed Doctor's support team, I loved Clara, Her mystery was nicely explained and wrapped up, although it felt a little bit rushed in places (two party would have done justice more, but I will take it as it is).
So, it wasn't bad at all. I enjoyed it fully. It will be hard time to wait six months for next Doctor Who fix.

No-one, but no-one saw that intro coming. If you didn't like Clara, you do now. Answers, no, not really, but we had depth, emotion, gravitas, and a grown-up episode. But ultimately JOHN HURT AS THE DOCTOR. My faith has been restored.

What a waste of film. And these reviewers? What?! They're not rushing over to the BBC to hoist Moffat on their shoulders so they can carry him through the streets?! RME
Give me a break! Clara SUDDENLY knowing all of the Doctor's is butt-up stupid!

Of course Moffat's fans are not known for their good taste nor their common sense.

They are SO EASILY impressed but alas, some of us have MUCH HIGHER standards then they do. That doesn't make us snobs, just fans with good taste.

I would have been much happier with Clara just being a Victorian Nanny. This was pathetic.

what a joke! And of course he had to bring back one of the worst villains in Dr Who history. No not the Master, River. What a Yuck! She is every bit the cold-blooded killer The Master was, and yet, her psychotic fans call her a hero? I think those mentally ill half-wits would also call the guy who shot up a Colorado Movie Theater a "Hero".

Never mind if she's fictional. That's the lame-azz defense from ignorant children. But if it's abnormal to hate a fictional character, then it's equally abnormal to like one. LOL! BOX!

John Hurts Dr is STUPID! What a stupid concept. But what else is new. Moffat is NOT known for intelligent, linear well-thought out story-lines. Contrary to popular prattle from his clueless fans!

And no! I am not angry, sad, nor do I need meds, (unlike River Song fans)! I am just a Real Doctor Who Fan who likes Classic to SOME of the New Stuff. Moffat's stuff is a blight on the history of Dr Who history. And I hope some future writer can wipe out ALL OF MOFFAT'S LAUGHABLE GARBAGE!

And I think with William Hartnell's Doctor he mentioned to Ian and Barbara Chesterton that he and Susan were shunned by their own people?

""What I did, I did without choice". This is 99% definitely a reference
to the genocide he commited in the Time War that killed both Daleks and
Time Lords. the guilt of which act still plagues the Doctor."

I think Clara's reading history of Time Wars fully support this idea. Nice theory, I think you are right on this one.

River opened the door because the TARDIS could still hear her just like the Doctor could still see and hear her, it just means only the Doctor, the TARDIS and Clara heard her (though talking about the TARDIS does make me wonder why it didn't like Clara to start with).

I get the feeling that the Moff wrote that "No living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" stuff before he had fully planned this episode (it was almost 2 years ago) it doesn't seem to have any relevance other than the fact the question was asked but there was nothing to suggest living creatres couldn't lie at that place.

Hold on! You have actual spoilers in this spoilerific review!!

I'd better stop reading ... :)


in who history the valeyard takes on identity
Of jack the ripper aka duke of CLARENCE"

In Trial of a Timelord (season 23, 1986) the Doctor is put on trial for interfering and later Genocide, the Prosecutor is later to be "A distillation of the evil parts of the Doctor from somewhere between the 12 and final regeneration."


We still don't know who gave Clara the phone number in the first ep of season seven part two....

No it doesn't. But since the ability to aquire more regenerations is already established, I'm sure it can be written in.

That can't be true, because the name of the Doctor refers to who he was BEFORE he became the Doctor, whilst during the events of the Time War he was already the Doctor. The question is Doctor Who? What is his name? He changed his name to Doctor for a reason, that is the promise he made, to redeem himself, or never look back. It's the First Question. They were asking Doctor Who? before anyone even knew of the Time War. It's about his origins. Before Hartnell ever stole the TARDIS. The Master referred to them choosing their names in 'The Sound of Drums', and the Doctor told the story of looking into the time vortex which turned him into the Master, and himself into a coward.

The 'promise' thing is more likely to be a metaphor. The only thing that suggests the involvement of the Time War is the book Clara read, but it could be that the Time Lords called the Doctor by his old name, as I've read somewhere he had a nickname of Theta Sigma or something. But then again, Rassilon called him Doctor in The End of Time.

The entire naming process of Time Lords is still a bit dodgy, with other Time Lords having job-specific titles, like the Meddling Monk, but Rassilon and Omega didn't (different generations?).

But it's clear that the Doctor chose a new identity after having done something heinous, which doesn't fit the Time War scenario, because that makes it seem like this Hurt Doctor was the Doctor, then broke his promise and then became the Doctor again. That doesn't explain why he was the Doctor in the first place.

No, this has to refer back to a much older event, when the Doctor was young. Because Hurt looks old.

Yeah, he's the 11th Doctor but as Hurt's Doctor felt the need to abandon the title - he wasn't actually "The Doctor" by name.

Well we didn't actually SEE Troughton regenerate into Pertwee, but I think that you are right with the McGann -> Hurt hypothesis.

I think the imperfection of it made me love it more, it's endearing in a way. Man, this episode just reminded me why this show holds a special place in my heart.

To each their own.

I thought Moffat would make the GI the thing that made it blow up, would have made sense and tied up loose ends but nope no answers.

Since Matt Smiths Doctor knows who JH is, he can't be a future doctor? I could be wrong though given he has a time machine!

The crack in my arse looks more like Amy's crack than the crack shaped crack in the Tardis. I need to see a doctor!

Exactly, John Hurt is what his original name now stands for, the genocide of his race. Keeping his name a secret means keeping his past self locked away.

Remember, that the Tardis claims the doctor did not steal it; it says it stole the doctor.

Therefore, Clara was acting as an agent of the Tardis when she directed Dr Hartnell away from a perfect Tardis towards a defective one.

That makes the Tardis the Great Intelligence. Not immediately, of course, but we now know the Tardis will go bad sometime in the future: the past depends on it.

Finally! Not just a good episode of Doctor Who but a Fantastic episode! Loved it! Finally an episode I can watch over and over, one with a cliff hanger, one with characters I cared about and a story that made sense and did not seem rushed. Finally Clara Oswald became interesting and not just one-dimensional and she showed more than one emotion. Plus so many questions we can ponder on until the 50th!

John Hurt could be the first Doctor, Who he was before he became the William Hurt incarnation or he could be the Paul Mcgann Doctor as he's the only one we've never seen regenerate.

I had a theory years ago that the Master was the Doctor in a future regeneration, it seems I was wrong but John Hurt could be simply a regeneration where he ditched the title Doctor and gave himself another name like The Vanguard so it does not really count as a Doctor regeneration number at all.

Oooh so many questions and theories, love it.

I will say this though. I think Catrin Stewart is miles above Jenna-Louise Coleman as a companion and wish they would have switched their roles.

What a load of old nonsensical tosh.

Other than Stax & the explanation for multiples Clara, everything else was awful. Even the explanation for the Claras doesn't make any sense as he'd have remembered her from when he stole the Tardis.

Then the paradox of even crossing timelines almost kills him, but then he can cope enough to enter his own whatever-it-was, he can hold & kiss the spirit (?) of River that's somehow there because you can travel through time in your dreams, Clara can defeat tGI through out the Doctor's timeline, but he couldn't have defeated it himself? I can't even be bothered to go on.

I'm just sad and disappointed.

Are they trying to get it cancelled?

I'm trying to forget the last 2 minutes and rebuild that 4th wall from my side.

I can't imagine many people will be tuning back in. Not sure I will.


"My name, my REAL name -- that is not the point -- the name I CHOSE is 'The Doctor', the name you choose... it's like a promise you make. HE'S the one who broke the promise."

"What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace...and sanity."

"I know... but not in the name of 'The Doctor'."

Smith is still the 11th "The Doctor", but apparently there's at least one regeneration of him that broke "the promise" and doesn't count. So basically they've introduced a differentiation between "11th regeneration" and "11th Doctor". Which actually is kind of astounding. Either he was an asshole before he stole the first TARDIS, or...something, honestly, I don't know. Maybe it's a regeneration he's disowned... maybe it has something to do with why we don't see Paul McGann? NO IDEA.

The on-screen text introduces him as "The Doctor", though. Either that's for OUR benefit so we know this is The Doctor in another form... or... ??? No idea. :D

November can't come soon enough. I'm just thankful this won't be a Christmas episode, so we get it sooner. ;D

A grown up episode is a failure for a kids show. Especially if it makes no logical sense (again).

Anyone here have any kids who watched it? What the heck did any 12 year olds make of it all. I'll be buggered if I could understand some of the weird and random jumps that happened in it.

"Introducing JH as The Doctor" was pretty much the point where I wondered where my favourite show had gone.

I think "many people will be tuning back in", as it was great! YOU ARE WRONG WRONG WRONG.

John Hurt isn't The Doctor tho, he's the same person but not The Doctor. Or some guff.

Wake me when Moffat's gone.

Sorry I just like my Who with a modicum of logic and sense. This episode didn't even make sense in relation to the warnings we got about Trenzalore.

It's just being made up on the hoof and nothing joins together properly.

I'm actually astounded that the reception here for it has been so positive.

Thats why the BBC have commissioned series 8. Just sayin.

I'm just impressed that the John Hurt Doctor is self captioning.

Well she has signed up for season 8, so there is plenty of time. Given she was born to save the doctor, who organised that and why?

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for answers.

I'm think spin-offs would cheapen it further, rather than letting the show die with dignity.

The Name of the Doctor wasn't the 50th, it's the Seventh Series finale. The 50th anniversary is on November 23rd

My pick is Time Wars. Clara read "History of Time Wars" in the "To the center of TARDIS", and for all Who history there's this one period we know for sure he isn't proud of.

Planets vanished, Stax turns evil again, everything the Doctor did came undone.

Except for Clara, citizen of Earth survived despite the Doctor saving the human race every other week; and River who the Doctor has saved many times.

Fantasy I enjoy, gaping plot holes I enjoy less.

And the fall of the (real) Eleventh when Silence must fall? Tennant's angry regeneration when a spilt occurs making Smith's Doctor and The valeyard.

RIGHT! I forgot about that. So... McGann -> Hurt -> Eccleston... but Hurt does something so horrible that he's basically excommunicated. That would explain a lot of the angst and hate in the Ninth Doctor era...

Respect. It's just cheating otherwise...

I think that Hurt is either the actual 9th Doctor who ended the Time War (the most popular theory) or that he's is "Doctor 0" who done something terrible and after he regenerated decided to take up a new mantle and travel the universe helping people, the Time War theory is more likely though.

"Other than Stax & the explanation for multiples Clara, everything
else was awful. Even the explanation for the Claras doesn't make any
sense as he'd have remembered her from when he stole the Tardis."

Time being rewritten, first by Great Intelligence and then by Clara. Timley Wimley.

"Then the paradox of even crossing timelines almost kills him, but then he can cope enough to enter his own whatever-it-was"

He risked both times (arriving at his grave and getting into his own time tear). Both times he thought it will kill him. It didn't, but it made him suffer."

"he can hold & kiss the spirit (?) of River"

He *felt* her. That's completely different than holding and kissing. He even commented on that for his support team it would look really crazy.

"that's somehow there because you can travel through time in your dreams"

This is actually canon, and in fact one of sanest explanations of time travel while not using "usual suspects". I enjoyed it.

"Clara can defeat tGI through out the Doctor's timeline, but he couldn't have defeated it himself?"

Doctor's timeline were getting rewritten, he was down. Only she could save him and return it back to normality. It is idea of ultimate companion.

"Are they trying to get it cancelled?"

Knowing how Who is written and developed and that's practially playing with huge posibility to introduce some paradoxes and plot wholes, I think you can be sure that a) general public will enjoy this episode a lot b) they won't get canceled.

While I was afraid that hype will destroy this episode, after watching I thought - this is it. This was really good.

Personally I do not think at all that John Hurt is the "real" 9th doctor. The BBC are not going to change the dynamic of the show so that doctors such as Tennant, Smith and Eccleston become a different number. They are going to remain 9th (eccleston), 10th (Tennant) and 11th (smith). Marketing and everything would have to change. I do 100% believe that this Doctor will be an older-aged version of 8. (look at the clothes and compare with McGann-- this also does not necessarily rulw out that McGann will not appear in some footage.) Furthermore as Moffat is fond of leaving clues in his writing; Clara stated that she "did not see that one" and the 8th incarnation did not appear in any montage or in that place where all the doctors were. The time war will be explored-- didn't Clara find a book on the time war inside the tardis' library? (I believe that was a hint). I also doubt heavily that it has anything to do with the Valleyard at all because that is not a secret- hence it was mentioned by the GI who knew about it.

So yeah, no valleyard and no changing of numbers and John Hurt is not a future doctor either. He is 8! He has aged because the Time war must have taken a toll.

The Doctor hasn't always been young it would be nice to have an older Doctor again .Actually it would be nice to have an older prime minister too .

"Sorry I just like my Who with a modicum of logic and sense. This episode
didn't even make sense in relation to the warnings we got about

Sometimes it is enough to say "I didn't get it", instead of playing "they don't know how to do it".

Reasoning of Silence of stopping Doctor to ever reaching Trenzalore - is exactly it, not opening doors for Great Intelligence and not letting rewrite Doctor's timeline (which result of lot of species disappearing, etc.).

An Uneathly Child Script:
"Doctor Who?"

Clara itself? :) Or River Song? She said that there was a link, and there's spoilers for Doctor.

My pick is it's either River Song, or her mother. There's something about her I can't put my finger on.

No the 12 Doctor rule has changed now . Theres several hundred possible regenerations now . Its not been explained but its a difference between the New Who and the Old Who . It was in the Sarah Jane series that had the Doctor as a guest .I think the possible regenerations now number 600 or more .

"Of course Moffat's fans are not known for their good taste nor their common sense."

Wow, you got some anger issues. Go, chill out, enjoy real life. There's too much tv and virtual one for you.

Wow, that was good. It'll be a long wait until the anniversary special airs, that's for sure.

really? I have personally thought that S7 is probably one of the strongest seasons so far, certainly no poor episodes...

Really enjoyed it! A thankful high point to finish the season on, I'll definitely look forward to giving this one a re-watch soon. Roll on November!

Strax and Jenny were restored, as someone else has pointed out. Spin-off safe.

What I really, really liked about this was Matt Smith's reaction at 12:15 in, when JLC asks about River, and he dismisses her curtly with 'yes, she's an ex' and pushes her for the exact words - she walks over and finds him crying and slightly hysterical. I've not enjoyed the kiddie-centric feel of much of series 7, but as the score ramps up and JLC trails off at the sight of a breaking Doctor...well, the levity throughout the show until now was worth it for the dramatic weight of his seriousness. Stunning.

I'm just genuinely confused by their relationship. I think I may have missed something. Why can the doctor not bump into her again? And when did they actually fall in love? That totally seems never to have really happened.

"What I did, I did without choice. In the name of peace, and sanity". Yes, I agree with those who theorise that John Hurt is the real 9th incarnation of the Doctor, between PM and CE. He "pressed the button" in the Time War, and has therefore become like a suppressed, bad memory in the lineage, the one who had to annihilate all (he thought at the time) the daleks as well as the Timelords; a terrible act that was therefore "not in the name of the doctor". As a heterosexual man, I can say that right now I want to marry John Hurt, what a wonderful choice he would be for another doctor. A face full of tragedy, no need to ham it up, effortless quality. One might even daydream about PM and CE coming back for the 50th, come on boys it's John bloody Hurt for Kane's sake.

This is the kind of finale that I think would have benefited greatly from being split up into multiple parts. It all just felt a bit. . .rushed. The enemies were meh at best, almost no time was taken to developing them into something that would be genuinely interesting. While I thought the overall plot was decent I just think the whole thing with the universe and The Doctors timeline going to hell should've taken up MORE THAN 2 MINUTES. Some time to process and develop would've been great.

Moving on to Clara, she just isn't THAT interesting. Moffat has basically centered the entire season story arc over her but has left out character development. I mean with Rose/Martha/Donna we even got to see a lot their family and THEY were even developed(<3 Wilfred) and with Amy and Rory they at least had their lives and backstory developed. All we have seen from Clara is Her+Doctor, for all intents and purposes that's all there is. I do like the character as a personality, I would just like to see her used as something more than a plot device.

P.S. People stop fretting over the 12 regenerations thing. Virtually anything can be written into who lore and I doubt most of the people watching the new series even know about it.

Hurt was the Doctor during the Time War. The promise he broke was that of a Doctor, to help people but not to kill, hence why he isn't the Doctor.

CE ran past when Clara was recovering from her fall. Didn't notice DT

Well, the big question hasn't been asked yet. We see Clara stop the first Doctor just before he steals the proper TARDIS and yet surely something was missing. WHERE WAS THE HAND OF OMEGA??? He didn't seem to have it on his person and yet we know he took it and brought it to earth in 1963. If Moffat doesn't answer this question then he is destroying the lore of Doctor Who and I shall never watch it again!!!

Haha. Only joking. Great episode... November seems an awfully long way away...

And equally - and I am not talking about this episode - a number of people will love the rubbish ones

There are 12 incarnations. 11 of them are Doctors. 1 is a psychotic mass-murderer.

People criticize the show for being too childish in it's current run, now it's being criticized for being too complex for kids.
You can't please everybody I suppose.

I'm no Moffat-worshipper, but I really enjoyed this.

Just in the interest of balance, I couldn't stand episode 2 of the current run, and wasn't keen on any except for 3, 4, 5 either.
Considering it's been such a hit and miss season, I thought this finale was the best MS has been in.

I properly enjoyed that. Matt Smith and JLC both excellent, I wasn't even irritated by River like I usually am.
Agreed that the GI was an underwhelming villain, seemed to be there to serve a purpose, could have been any intelligent alien species.

Next time, I really hope they have an assistant who isn't integral to the entire universe. It'd be nice to have somebody normal, just so that you can almost relate to them again.

Oh shut up and find a new show, troll.

IF this new special is about the timewar the newly discovered ninth regeneration, and Matt Smith is in it, presumably as part of his being in his timeline, would that not open a doorway into the timewar bubble, possibly releasing a certain Master whos been sat waiting madly. Maybe the Great Intelligence could take him over, and become a new proper evil master. So many ideas :)

The "introducing John Hurt..." text banner was unecessary and bit insulting. John Hurt needs no introduction.

Russel T Davis wrote that actually. Where is your god now!

Sooo .... there's still a big mystery about her?

I won't see it till tonight.

I basically spent the entire episode screaming at the television. It was so remarkably brilliant.

So the TARDIS that dies and grows out of itself at his grave... not only is it the current TARDIS 'theme' inside, but the window that cracked was still cracked in the larger TARDIS that was dying... how are they getting around that one? It wasn't a reset button just because she fell through his life after all.

Normally I'd say it was unnecessary, but I think it was more there to confirm that John Hurt is the Doctor, than to introduce John Hurt.

Maybe that's something that the Great Intelligence changed causing Omega to return in the 50th anniversary or in the near future perhaps, or near past or the present, it's all very confusing keeping track of time with this show.

Seriously though you could be onto something.

I don't mean to sound like a grammar Nazi here but why did you capitalize Tenant, John Hurt, McGann, Moffat and Clara. But not Eccleston or Smith?

You can see a glimpse of McGann before the opening credits, just before the second Doctor appears before Clara. If you pause around 1:08 you can clearly see him :D

I concede it wouldn't necessarily be the most satisfying explanation, but there's nothing (at least as far as I recall) that precludes The Doctor stealing the TARDIS and then grabbing The Hand. I don't think there is anything in RotD that defines an absolute sequence of events, a bit vexing that I can't remember for sure as I re-watched it only a month or so ago.

That said, I absolutely agree it would have been wonderful if they'd shown him with The Hand in that scene.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Maybe it could be because I live in the US and don't watch too many movies or too much TV, I only suspected who he was because I know he's in the 50th anniversary. Also, the "Introducing John Hurt" before they said "As the Doctor" made me stop for a moment and think "no way, no freakin, way" because that's how they introduce other actors as the Doctor.

It was unusual, and almost took me out of the show, but I did like it.

By the current run do you mean Series Seven as a whole or just the episodes featuring Clara as a companion?

What was wrong with episodes such as:
A Christmas Carol
The Impossible Astronaut / Day Of The Moon
The Doctors Wife
The Girl Who Waited
The God Complex
Angels Take Manhatten
The Snowmen
The Name Of The Doctor

It was an awesome episode ! Probably the best this season and one of the best season final !! The revelation with John Hurt was so unexpected and brilliant !!

Well it wasn't spelled on screen at all.was it... The Valeyard is an incarnation of the Doctor who did not go by the title Doctor. And how and why he ended the Time War is not a secret, see The End of Time and the Doctor's Wife, but why he became the Valeyard IS a secret, or at least unknown.

Do you have the ability to not troll, because you may want to start using it, if you don't like the episodes then stop watching, don't come on here to bitch and whine just for the sake of bitching and whining.

It didn't negate the canon... This sentence in SJA was just a joke ! You weren't supposed to take it seriously. It's like when the 8th Doctor pretends he's half human on his mother side while it's just this incarnation of the Doctor who regenerated half human. He's a pure Time Lord.

Nope not one of Moffs, that was written by RTD, the same bloke who wrote the technical regeneration. The line was 507 lives, said in the middle of an escape by the Doctor to Clyde. Additional 5+0+7 is 13, the number of lives the Doctor has. It was a joke. Also he has 12 regenerations, so he has 13 bodies.

Now that this theory is out there, it's the one I want to be true more than anything. John Hurt somehow manages to convey immense tragedy simply by standing with his back to us. Absolutely brilliant.

This line in SJA was a joke ! A Time Lord can naturally regenerate 12 times. BUT he can also get extra lives, like when the master was given a whole new set àf 13 lives by Rassilon during the Time War.

Definitely ! :)

He's actually the real ninth Doctor ! That's why we never saw 8th regenerating into 9th ! It's brilliant !

I would agree but most regular viewers of the show know he only has 13 lives... One of the odd bits of mythos that viewers remembered, more than the half human line. By all means go around it but explain I hope they explain it as they do, wouldn't exactly be difficult.

If this is the Time War Doctor, he apparently ended the Last Time War with something called The Moment. Also, isn't the Thirteenth Doctor a evil one?

Yep ! That's what I think too !

Loved this a lot. Best episode in a long time. It may be pedantry but given that Smith specifically said Hurt wasn't The Doctor, having broken whatever the promise was, to then say "Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor is technically incorrect. Cannot wait for November now!!

Apparently the 3 'modern' Doctors have forgotten about the Hurt Doctor and it's going to be fairly quickly explained in the 50th special. I reckon he was so ashamed at whatever it was he did that he somehow 'locked away' the memories, be it either in his own head or in some type of storage device. Maybe entering his own time stream somehow releases these memories.

Also if this makes Matt Smith number 12, then I guess we'll find out fairly soon whether or not they're going to be including the Valeyard in the modern series. Unless Hurt becomes the Valeyard, I don't think they'll include him. It's a canon nightmare and a 9th doctor Hurt might seem too similar to the Valeyard

The BBC ditched the 12 regenerations rule 3 years ago

Massive apologies for this epic length list of questions, but I need to ask them. Sorry if any are obvious.

On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question that must never be answered will be asked: the first question, hidden in plain sight. So what was the Fall? What’s this about not speaking falsely or failing to answer? The Doctor failed to answer. Was the Fall just the TARDIS literally falling?

Where do the Silence fit in? What, exactly, were they so damn worried about? The Great Intelligence getting ahold of the Doctor’s timeline and destroying the universe whilst meddling in his past? If so, they surely could’ve made it clearer. [The Silence weren’t even there, yet they wanted to prevent it! Surely you’d go to Trenzalore just in case he did make it?]

The Whispermen and the GI just pop up out of nowhere, pretty much. The episode’s written as if they’ve been a huge big bad whereas they really haven’t. Surely the Silence would’ve made more sense than the Whispermen? Or is there a connection?

Clara tells the First Doctor which TARDIS to nick… so that speech from Idris (about her calling out and stealing the Doctor) is now retconned? Or did the TARDIS have a hand in this, guiding Clara to choose the correct one?

Clara also falls through time ‘saving’ the Doctor. Nice idea but poorly executed. She bangs on a window across the chasm from the Seventh Doctor. Great save. (A naff idea anyway since the Doctor is rescued - which everyone seems to forget! - rather quickly by Glitz. Or, again, are we to assume the GI had involvement in that whole ‘I’ll climb down the cliff-face’ thing?) Why is the Sixth Doctor in the later TARDIS’ corridors? Are we meant to gloss over it, or assume the classic TARDIS also had these kinds of corridors, or are we to assume they’re like they are because Clara recognises the Eleventh Doctor’s TARDIS and these are her recollections?

^ Plus the whole scene is just weird. Because it’s so epic and mental that they just can’t. So instead we just see stars going out and Strax changing, and Jenny dying. Conveniently Vastra doesn’t change, and neither does River or the Doctor, allowing Clara enough time to sacrifice herself into the timestream.

And why does Clara only see eleven Doctors, if this is the entirity of the Doctor’s life? Is the Eleventh Doctor the one who ends up properly dead on Trenzalore? Did I miss something here? And when the Doctor dies, his TARDIS tomb will have the current control room. Are we to assume he now never changes it? Or are we to assume a future Doctor (the last one) has this one too?

The ending, in the Doctor’s timestream… will we continue from this in November, or not? Because it all just felt thrown in. Clara jumps into the Doctor’s timestream to save the Doctor, and he then dives in after her. Isn’t that a bit bad? How do they get out? Will this be addressed, or will we have to take another leap into the unknown with fan theories?

If only the Doctor and River know the Doctor’s name, and they’re both dead, who set the password on the Doctor’s tomb? TARDIS preset? Clara starts to remember the timeline that never happened (Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS) yet the plot point of her seeing the Doctor’s name in the book is never even touched upon. Or did she conveniently not remember that?

Bonus: Woman in the shop. 50th plot point, or another dangling thread?

Bonus 2: Where the flip is the Hand of Omega? Does the First Doctor go back for it after he decides which TARDIS to nick? Does he acquire it later? Is it already in the TARDIS? Is Remembrance of the Daleks now also retconned?

Bonus 3: Fan theory time - place the Second Doctor clip. He’s running (taken from The Five Doctors) but appears to be on a beach somewhere, in his fur coat. I wonder why they didn’t colourise a brief scene from a B&W story as they did with Hartnell.

Answers on a slightly massive postcard...

To be honest, I don't really care about the hand of Omega. I was just being facetious and having a little dig at those who are so obsessed with continuity (such as the number of regenerations the Doctor has left) that they let it ruin their enjoyment of the show. I am obsessed with Doctor Who but I can let these things go. It's nice if they get tied up with a bow but it's not the end of the world if they don't. Whatever happens the Doctor will have more then thirteen lives. Even if the show got cancelled tomorrow, it would come back in the future. I honestly believe that Doctor Who will still be around long after I am dead. It's like Sherlock Holmes or Robin Hood. It'll never end...

... And that's no bad thing!

Also River Song gave up all her regenerations to save him in Lets kill HItler. There's another chance to get some more lives.

Massive apologies for this epic length list of questions, but I need to ask them. Sorry if any are obvious. It’s just a lot of stuff to wrap my head around. Spoilers for The Name of the Doctor…

On the fields of Trenzalore, at the fall of the Eleventh, when no creature can speak falsely or fail to answer, a question that must never be answered will be asked: the first question, hidden in plain sight. So what was the Fall? What’s this about not speaking falsely or failing to answer? The Doctor failed to answer. Was the Fall just the TARDIS literally falling?

Where do the Silence fit in? What, exactly, were they so damn worried about? The Great Intelligence getting ahold of the Doctor’s timeline and destroying the universe whilst meddling in his past? If so, they surely could’ve made it clearer. [The Silence weren’t even there, yet they wanted to prevent it! Surely you’d go to Trenzalore just in case he did make it?]

The Whispermen and the GI just pop up out of nowhere, pretty much. The episode’s written as if they’ve been a huge big bad whereas they really haven’t. Surely the Silence would’ve made more sense than the Whispermen? Or is there a connection?

Clara tells the First Doctor which TARDIS to nick… so that speech from Idris (about her calling out and stealing the Doctor) is now retconned? Or did the TARDIS have a hand in this, guiding Clara to choose the correct one?

Clara also falls through time ‘saving’ the Doctor. Nice idea but poorly executed. She bangs on a window across the chasm from the Seventh Doctor. Great save. (A naff idea anyway since the Doctor is rescued - which everyone seems to forget! - rather quickly by Glitz. Or, again, are we to assume the GI had involvement in that whole ‘I’ll climb down the cliff-face’ thing?) Why is the Sixth Doctor in the later TARDIS’ corridors? Are we meant to gloss over it, or assume the classic TARDIS also had these kinds of corridors, or are we to assume they’re like they are because Clara recognises the Eleventh Doctor’s TARDIS and these are her recollections?

^ Plus the whole scene is just weird. Because it’s so epic and mental that they just can’t. So instead we just see stars going out and Strax changing, and Jenny dying. Conveniently Vastra doesn’t change, and neither does River or the Doctor, allowing Clara enough time to sacrifice herself into the timestream.

And why does Clara only see eleven Doctors, if this is the entirity of the Doctor’s life? Is the Eleventh Doctor the one who ends up properly dead on Trenzalore? Did I miss something here? And when the Doctor dies, his TARDIS tomb will have the current control room. Are we to assume he now never changes it? Or are we to assume a future Doctor (the last one) has this one too?

The ending, in the Doctor’s timestream… will we continue from this in November, or not? Because it all just felt thrown in. Clara jumps into the Doctor’s timestream to save the Doctor, and he then dives in after her. Isn’t that a bit bad? How do they get out? Will this be addressed, or will we have to take another leap into the unknown with fan theories?

If only the Doctor and River know the Doctor’s name, and they’re both dead, who set the password on the Doctor’s tomb? TARDIS preset? Clara starts to remember the timeline that never happened (Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS) yet the plot point of her seeing the Doctor’s name in the book is never even touched upon. Or did she conveniently not remember that?

Bonus: Woman in the shop. 50th plot point, or another dangling thread?

Bonus 2: Where the flip is the Hand of Omega? Does the First Doctor go back for it after he decides which TARDIS to nick? Does he acquire it later? Is it already in the TARDIS? Is Remembrance of the Daleks now also retconned?

Bonus 3: Fan theory time - place the Second Doctor clip. He’s running (taken from The Five Doctors) but appears to be on a beach somewhere, in his fur coat. I wonder why they didn’t colourise a brief scene from a B&W story as they did with Hartnell.

Answers on a slightly massive postcard

That may have been the best episode yet of Moffat's run. Not only did he manage to incorporate so many old regen references, he managed to do it without making some half assed, impractically twisted story line. My mind is going mad for theories on the 50th Anniversary.

ONLY GRIPE....pleeeeaaase don't tell me that's what a TARDIS ACTUALLY looks like?

What about Romana's regeneration fashion show?

Did you notice that the Tardis apparently never repairs that crack? The tomb Tardis had the same crack in it's window.....

Hey everybody, didn't River give up all her regenerations to save the Doctor back in 'Let's Kill Hitler' and wont that mean that he has at least twelve more?

If you are talking about the explosion at the beginning of the episode - the Tardis knew that the Doctor was going to Trenzalore and was trying to stop him........

I simply disagree, I loved this episode and the latest 2 seasons.

Just my own little theory - Clara is the daughter of the Doctor and River Song.....the girl who was born to save the Doctor - she literally saved the Doctor's body - but maybe her birth also saved his spirit and soul - if she is their child - that would explain why River was mentally linked to her - and it might also explain why the Doctor could find her so quickly - he is also mentally linked to her! It might also explain why he was willing to risk possibly destroying himself and his timeline and the consequences to the universe - a parent's love knows no bounds for their child!

Clara jumped into the time stream - fragmenting herself - ensuring those fragments will be there throughout time to save the different Doctors - but there is more than one way to save someone - you can save their physical body - but you can also save their spirit and soul! I think Clara is the daughter of River and the Doctor - and her birth restores his soul......that is why River is mentally linked to Clara still - Clara is the "spoiler"

Perhaps, Eccleston's Doctor wasn't the "ninth." John Hurt *was* the ninth... the one who lived through the Great Time War and did what Smith's Doctor described as an act that was antithetical to his chosen name. True, John Hurt didn't show up when the Doctor allowed the Cyperplanner access to his memories about Time Lords and regeneration, but he admitted to Clara that that incarnation of him was his dark secret. It was probably John Hurt he saw when he opened the door to "his" room in "The God Complex." Ah... one could go on and still be off the mark in the end.

Loved seeing his previous incarnations. November can't come too soon.

well, it was never explained if it was an equal transaction. who knows, it might just take all your remaining regenerations to give someone one.

he did say he could regenerate something like 500ish times in the sarah jane spinoff, though it's easy to believe he was joking.

there's also that the number of regenerations being capped might have something to do with time lord politics, and with no time lords left, no longer in effect

what is River and the Doctor have a child together - Clara! River would be trying to ensure that the father of her child is safe - and perhaps because he is safe - he'll keep their daughter safe

I think Clara is the daughter of River and the Doctor.....

I disagree with all of that, most likely he is 8 after years of travelling but what he does to end the time war is so far against what he stands for that he refuses to think of himself as the Doctor in that era of his life.

What I am interested in is the fact that every single Clara lived her own life. So, in many of her lives, she got caught up in the Doctor's adventure randomly. She was behind the scenes, trying to save that crazy man for some reason that she didn't even understand herself usually. Sometimes she was human, and sometimes not, I imagine. She was born each time to save the Doctor. Ignore some of the larger plotholes, because I'd like to say something. Something that I think most Who fans might miss. Clara told the Doctor to steal a different TARDIS. On Gallifrey. That means that she was a TIME LORD in one of her lives. Huh? Whaddya think?

Clara is the daughter of River and the Doctor.....just my theory

And Clara is Susan's mother...? Either that or Jenny but she's kinda been forgotton about

here is my theory - Clara is the daughter of River and the Doctor - that would make her a TIme Lady - she was born to physically save the Doctor throughout time - but perhaps her birth also saved his spirit somehow. Being their daughter would explain why River is mentally linked to her - why the Doctor could find her so quickly in his time stream (he's mentally linked to her as well) - why he was willing to destroy himself by stepping into his own time stream (a father's love) and she is one of River's "spoilers"

Throwing another theory into the mix........why hadn't River faded yet? Was Clara born to save the Doctor's body - or spirit? Why was River still mentally linked to Clara? How was the Doctor able to find Clara so quickly in his own timeline? Why was he willing to risk himself - his timeline - and the potential changes to the universe by entering his own timeline? ................ What if Clara is the daughter of the Doctor and River. Everything they are doing they are doing because of a parent's love for their child.

Which is creepy, wasn't she attracted to the Doctor and flirting with him a bit at first?

She couldn't remember any of her other lives - or the other Doctor's until they went to could she have known the he was her father...........

I think he's probably the 9th Incarnation but not the 9th Doctor. As was stated "I said he was me, I didnt say he was the doctor."

Didn't like it, think The Wedding of River Song was the best Moffat finally, liked Big Bang, but I like the simplicity of the it was a robot all along answer for TWoRS. Big Band and this finale feel a little less thought out, and too much of a sense of "We don't have to explain a thing, it's a sci fi show!"

I mean, really, how could he touch River?

I thought crossing or interfering with your own timeline was so dangerous, I guess not, but the 3 Doctors, 5 Doctors and the 2 Doctors did it, but still.
I have more problems, but will leave it at that.

Valeyard, perhaps?

Maybe - Clara and Jenny are one and the same.......if they are the Doctor's daughter - they would be at the least - part Time Lady - and able to regenerate

"Even the explanation for the Claras doesn't make any sense as he'd have remembered her from when he stole the Tardis." - No he wouldn't as that hadn't happened yet in that present version of the Doctors timelime. You are forgetting the whole idea of time travel and the paradox's it may bring. Plus the fact it's fiction. :D

I keep waiting for them to answer that one and they never do.

Absolutely loved this episode. Just wanted to add that I don't think Moffat changed any of the Doctor Who plot lines of the past. Rather, the GI went to destroy them and Clara put them right again. He just never noticed her until they met properly in Asylum, which she says in her monologue as she's falling. Nothing was changed, she's just always been around.

Oh.. OH!!
Okay, so I was wondering to myself while watching the scenes which included past Doctors.. Why no Eighth? Why are they all here, running about, but no Eighth? Not even a body double for McGann, not a sausage!
Now, I've read your comment, and I think.. Maybe we DID see him. Maybe he's John Hurt? For the Doctor to age like that, the Time War must have waged for an unthinkably large amount of time.. Which has been referenced before. The Time War waged outside of perceivable, linear time - did it not? Heck of a lot longer than.. What's he saying now? 1100 years old? Longer than that, anyway. The Doctor might cut out the ages he spent as the Eighth Doctor, because he lost the right to the name. Anyway, for them to PURPOSEFULLY not include ANY scenes of McGann's Doctor, they must have had a reason? That reason being.. He was there, all along. Just a bit older.

Oh, and on a little side note (and if you're comfortable with spoiler images of the 50th anniversary.. Also spoilers ahead) go and google up a few images of John Hurt filming the 50th, and then an image of McGann's Doctor. Similar silk waistcoat, similar pocketwatch chain, similar neckscarf thing..

My only regret we didn't see the final version of the tardis interior. i am sure for budget reason they used what the had but it would of been cool

It was probably the whisper men who did the voice and the Tardis caused to explode by the Great Intelligence.

Could John Hurt be an aged version of the Eighth Doctor?

It would have really been the fall of 11th, hadn't Clara saved him !

But all of time isn't rewritten immediately.

I could very well be wrong, but this answer at least makes my head hurt less. I think the TARDIS blew itself up and acted as a sun replacement to buy Earth sometime until the Doctor could figure out how to save it. It also put River on loop to save her. I have to rewatch but I think the Doctor says something along those lines?

That wasn't a regeneration. The Doctor used enough of the regenerative energy to heal his body and then bled the excess amount into the hand, which formed the Doctor clone and therefore avoiding a full regeneration.

Given the Doctor's lusty comments about Clara and her tight skirt last episode I doubt very much she'll turn out to be his daughter. Plus, the thought of him and River having, please, just no.

The best way Moffat can shake up series 8 is to leave. Sorry, but I'm really tired of his showrunning now. The man has no idea how to resolve anything in a satisfying way - he just throws up more questions. And his character development is a joke - there is no character growth whatsoever other than what the plot demands. I loved season 5 but since then all the potential has been squandered.

Rose/Martha/Donna worked because their character arcs were not based on a mystery - just good old fashioned, straightforward storytelling and characterization. Moffat seems to think that if you make a character mysterious enough that will make people interested and you don't need to work at making the character actually progress (see Amy, River and Clara). The problem with this is oftentimes, once the big mystery is revealed, it's all rather anti-climactic and all you're left with is a used-up plot device and not a character (see Amy, River and Clara).


Not necessarily any more now that we've seen her post-Library.

That would make sense - I think she said she could read Gallifreyan because she was conceived in the TARDIS *shudder*

We old-timers may remember that the Time Lords were founded by a triumvirate of Rassilon, Omega, and The Other. I've always thought that the Doctor was not quite your typical Gallifrayan, and is, in fact, the eventual incarnation of "The Other."

Before the series was cancelled back in the '80s, it seemed like they were pursuing something along these lines. Perhaps, John Hurt is "The Other." There have been 11 "Doctors," but that doesn't mean that this particular Time Lord didn't have prior regenerations before he became "The Doctor." It's possible that the regeneration limit doesn't apply to him. Maybe that limit was intentionally introduced into the species at a later point. Maybe "The Other" is special because he precedes The Hand of Omega, much less The Eye of Harmony, which gives the Time Lords their power. Who knows?

The point is... everyone seems to think that John Hurt is an older version of the 8th Doctor, or maybe the true 9th, but maybe we should look back a bit further in the series to find the real answers. Maybe he is the original... dating from a time far, far, FAR before the 1st "Doctor."


That's fair but a mention of this would have been nice. Look, I don't need everything spelled out, but when you're talking about a plot point that's been going on for nearly three years, a little more clarity would be appreciated.

The Doctor was ogling her tight skirt in the last episode. I really, really don't think the BBC want to open up that can of worms.

Possibly. Or she could just be Gallifreyan. Although never really spelled out on the show, it's largely inferred that Time Lords are an elite race within Gallifrey but there are plenty of natives on the planet who are not Time Lords. Clara may have been one of those.

I'm convinced after seeing that episode that we need a Vastra/Jenny/Strax spinoff. Not only that, but we also need a John Hurt 'Time War' miniseries if it ends up their retconning him in after McGann. It's been a quiet world since Torchwood and Sarah Jane ended.

LOL - but yet, it's ok for Amy and Rory to have sex in a bunk bed and conceive River? Double standard much?

The Eighth Doctor, if not Paul McGann himself, DID make an appearance. He is seen rapidly brushing past Clara just before the Second Doctor (obviously Patrick Troughton, inserted via CGI) brushes past her in his fur coat and proceeds to run through what appears to be some kind of park.

It does. The fact that they very nearly annihilated the entire universe (The Pandorica Opens) would be due to a tactical error on their part, methinks.

Maybe not so much as forgotten as "pushed to that part of your mind where things we don't think about (but still know about) go."

Go back again - you see McGann for a few seconds before
Doctor #2

That's a really good theory, but the Doctor doesn't shy away from telling people about the Time War, and what he did then. It doesn't seem to be a "secret" the way that whatever JH's Doctor did.

Loved it, but I don't really understand why River opened the tomb. Considering the magnitude of the situation- that the GI could interfere with so many worlds across so much time- it seems silly that she'd open the tomb to save four companions' lives. The Doctor wasn't willing to do it himself. Why would she step in and do it?

I am going to go out on a limb and say that John Hurt's version of the Doctor is not the Valeyard. Some fans are getting caught up in the Great Intelligence mentioning the Valeyard's name what the Great Intelligence was doing was naming all the known alias of the Time Lord known as the Doctor. The 11th Doctor says to Clara he's my secret he broke his promise. The promise being saving the Universe using his birth name The John Hurt Doctor is the version that no longer uses the alias The Doctor but rather uses his actual Gallifreyan name

'Introducing John Hurt as The Doctor' felt a bit Tarantinoesque! Think it was just there for the thick viewers! Only real let down of a top notch, fantastic episode.

actually i think this one is on to something

i distantly recall a conversation somewhere along those lines. My youtubes down can anyone else verify?
cheers chris

i aslo loved the subtle nods to the fashion of the time she was wearing

but why dose the tardis not like clara? ultimitly its thanks to clara that the doctor ended up wit her isnt it?

or dose the tardis just get affected by strange timey-wimey impossible people becuase they dont follow the rules/follow the rules even less.becuase thats what i assumed it was from the start


because affectively he Hurt the doctors morales or reputation or ideals or something or he was Hurt

he looked quite old ,could he be the eight doctor at the end the of time war. maybe thats why he regenerated old age-or he could havebeen ashamed and just wanted to leave his treacherous "not in the name of the doctor" self

yeah because 9 and 10 could still remember destroying all the time lords and then timelocking it

I agree and lets not forget Professor Chronotis aka Salyavin (evidence that a Time Lord can both alter time and gain an extra regeneration and also assume a totally new identity) and it would explain why Chronotis and The Doctor were so close both changed their identities Doctor being friends with Chronotis and the Doctor's former self being friends with Salyavin

actually in the Sarah-Jane adventures(im young enough to have watched that when i was young(er)) he told clyde he would not run out of regenerations
perhaps when you kill a timelord there spare regenerations latch on to you for want of some where to go. presumably killing a planet full would then according to my theories involve a lot of regenerations latching on to you

slight spoilers underneath

is it me or dose that look suspiciously like 9's leather jacket on hurt-and than some pual macgann clothing underneath?

I am thinking he's Doctor 0 or he's a version of The Doctor that uses his birth name his actual Gallifreyan name and not his assumed alias as The Doctor. That's the deep secret Doctor Who? as in Who is the Doctor and John Hurt is the solution he's the real Gallifreyan not alias known as The Doctor

@James Cunnigham. No disrespect, nice try, but no.
Did the Doctor answer? No.
Surely the Silence would've turned up to stop this happening? No, they didn't.
And I'm still waiting for a clear explanation from SM about why the TARDIS blew up three years ago.

I agree I am fairly certain John Hurt is playing a pre William Hartnell Doctor or rather the version prior to the name change. Much on the same lines as Shada were Salyavin changed his identity to Professor Chronotis. I think John Hurt's version did the same thing changed his actual Gallifreyan name to The Doctor when he and Susan ran away. We know the Doctor isn't his real name as both times he is on trial 2nd and 6th they call him the Time Lord that styles himself The Doctor

Maybe the TARDIS didn't like her because it couldn't work her out just like the Doctor? Come to think of it the TARDIS was a bit mean to Amy too it kept making her wait to start with by leaving huge gaps between the Doctors visits, almost as if the TARDIS likes to test the companions devotion to him.

I meant the explosion in the 'The Pandorica Opens' and 'Big Bang' :)

Ah right. Good thinking! I will have to give the episode another look and keep my ears peeled. Thanks Chris!

That is certainly plausible. Ta :)

Yeah. He's just aged...not regenerated. Hence the regen numbers don't increment & we can still get a Valeyard :)

I have mixed feelings with this...
The plot thing was kind of OK, with some little doubts on my side, but I'm kind of new to sci-fi so maybe it is just me not getting things.
1) I don't know why they summon River (nor how, really, because... How do they now she is data in the library? and WHY do they need her exactly? And how does she know EVERYTHING? As the Doctor says, "River always knew". She is like the freaking Wikipedia. Talk about an ultimate Mary Sue).
2) I loved Clara talking to the first doctor, but then why doesn't he remember her. And I don't know if the rewriting thing helps, because he certainly remembered her from the two episodes we've seen. Plus, if SHE doesn't remember... How can she know that she has to save him? Or which TARDIS he should pick? Or... anything?
3) How exactly does she take down The Great Intelligence?
4) Where was her when he saves him?
5) How come he can't see his tomb but he can totally enter his own timeline? That is a consistency issue.

On the other hand... I'm not sure we've got enough 'adventure' in the classic sense, I'm sure most kids must have been bored. The bad guys were disappointing in the actual action sense, even though they were great in a plot level.

THAT is a good theory. I believe the Hurt Doctor is the Valeyard myself, due to them dropping the name earlier in the episode, but I could easily believe that. The other question is, how is The Doctor going to escape his own timeline? It never said that.

So John Hurt is the ninth life after Paul McGann, but he wasn't allowed to take the name of 'Doctor' due to his actions in the time war. So Ecclestone is the Ninth Doctor but the Doctor's tenth life, Tennant is the Tenth Doctor but eleventh life, and Smith is the Eleventh Doctor but twelfth life.

I thought the finale had some great moments (the First Doctor scenes were amazing), but there were a few issues:

i) The Tardis Console at the Doctor's grave on Trenzalore was the current Tardis console - does this mean that the Doctor never changes console room again?

ii) If Clara has inserted herself into the Doctor's timestream and saved him mutliple times before in his earlier lives, why does the Eleventh Doctor not recognise her?

iii) Steven Moffat has a plan for the series arc that fits well with his stories, but it means that other writers in the series have to work with a companion they barely know, and they have to shoe-horn in references to the impossible girl/girl twice dead which don't fit with their narratives. As a result, the episodes this series have seemed lacklustre, and you don't warm to Clara or know much about her over the series, so you don't really care or believe that she would jump into the Doctor's timestream in the Name of the Doctor. Steven Moffat took over series 6 with the River/Doctor Death story, and now he has done it again with the Clara arc. Doctor Who is becoming all about Moffat and his dark, complex, timey-wimey arcs. There are great moments for long-term fans of Classic and New Who like myself, but I can understand why the general public is switching off. We need to get back to completely standalone episodes (with very minor/barely noticeable arc references) and inject the fun, humour, excitement and emotion back into Doctor Who. Moffat is a very clever writer, but he takes over as showrunner far too much.

If John Hurt is the docter then yes it only makes sense for him to be between Mcgann and Ecclestones doctors or a 'future version'. Anything else would be a slightly lazy rewrite of Doctor Who history.
It is about time that the great 'time war' was properly visited so this is a great oppurtunity to do so.

Oh, boy, do I like the idea that Hurt is just an older version of McGann, pre-regeneration into Eccleston!!! That would just about blow my mind. Again. :)

I scared my girlfriend in the next room with the noises I was making while watching the opening scene. Tom Baker, back on screen after 40 years! AAAAAAAAAH!!!

I say he's not regenerated, but just a much older version of McGann, maybe even artificially aged by the Time War! I would completely accept him as the old Eighth Doctor, then we could finally see the regeneration into the Ninth (if Eccleston will give us one more goddamn day of filming)!

And how about you finally throw Paul a bone and give him some flashbacks in the Anniversary Special, you bastards!!! :)

Oh, and the bee-keeping retirement line! A nod to Sherlock Holmes, lovely.

I may have missed it but I don't remember seeing David Tennants Doctor either, which seemed weird?
Another question that occurred to me is if Clara saves the Doctor throughout time why doesn't the Tardis like her?
I think he is a missing regeneration tho, between McGann and Eccalstones from the time war.

I think it's the 12th Doctor Valeyard.

I think the 12th Doctor is really the Valeyard.

From my understanding, he's McGann's regeneration before Eccleston, but did not give himself the title 'Doctor' because of some massive harm he did, that I expect has something to do with the Time War.

No one's ever going to see this post way down here, but what the heck, I'll write it anyway. The Doctor is in his 8th incarnation when the Time War begins. The 8th Doctor dies during the war. He regenerates into the 9thJohnHurt Doctor. The 9thJohnHurt Doctor is the one who destroys the Daleks, countless other worlds and species and of course, the Time Lords. The 9thJohnHurt Doctor despises himself and returns to the point of the 8th Doctors death and throws something into the mix which causes 8th Doctor to regenerate not into the 9thJohn Hurt Doctor, but into the 9thChristopherEccleston Doctor. Thus erasing the existence of the 9thJohnHurt Doctor, but the memory of the 9thJohn Hurt Doctor is retained, as are his actions during the Time War. Even with the regeneration of 8th to 9thJohnHurt Doctor altered, the 9thChrisEccleston Doctor has subconscious memories of the 9thJohnHurt Doctor, and so does some things the same way, like wearing the same black leather coat. Whatchathink?

I don't remember the 13 lives statement, was it really that cut and dried or was it just a passing comment someone once made? In any event, I presume no-one would want the series to end when it was still on a roll just to remain consistent with this one bit of myth?

I don't get that. Isn't Clara just the daughter of the leaf couple?

I don't really think they're gonna tinker with the numbering if they don't HAVE to. Doesn't seem necessary. Why couldn't this just be a much older Eight?

I really think, based on nothing whatsoever, that this is how McGann looks AFTER the Time War without a regeneration, but before Eccleston.

We're just gonna have to agree to both be furious that November is so far away. ;)

well, according to previous history, Madame Vastra should also be vanished because of her possible death from hands of subway workers who should be somehow defending themselves after her harsh awakening in 19th century

Totally agree on Moffat as showrunner. Would much prefer him to write a couple of episodes a series and someone else to lead things.

Yep. That's right.

Yes: I've theorized before that the TARDIS tests new companions to make sure they measure up to her standards. She's protecting the Doctor, as always.

It literally was spelt on screen. "Introducing John Hurt as 'The Doctor'

This is getting Who-ishly weird: we get Matt Smith as "John Smith", a Tenth Doctor named Tennant, a Doctor named McCoy (yes, that is a Trek reference), two Doctors named Baker ("Souffle Girl" was apparently baking with them too!), Hartnell for a character with two hearts... and now a Hurt Doctor. One who clearly hurt himself and caused hurt to others. Cue the eerie theremin music...

I think he's done a great job leading us here, from the very beginning. Except ever since Amy and Rory left, yes, there's been no character growth for anyone besides the Doctor. Best thing about the episode was River's goodbye, cementing their relationship as true for the first and final time. But Clara is, like Merry in 'Akhaten' just a lamb to the slaughter, a plot device, a Mary Sue, all so Moffat could lead us into the mystery of the show's title: Doctor Who? So the destination is great, it's the journey that's been a bit wobbly in season 7. I loved season 6. I miss the tweed. What 'Name of the Doctor' lacked in wasn't resolution, but build-up. The stakes were high in 'A Good Man Goes to War' and 'Wedding of River Song' because it was established before what was going on and what the risks were. Here, The Intelligence showed up and then left, Clara sacrificed herself and got better. Okay. And Moffat keeps saying how Silence Will Fall, and the Doctor Will Rise Never Higher and Fall So Much Further and the Fall of the Eleventh.... he needs to stop it with the Falling or at least show a proper definitive fall, which isn't the TARDIS crashing. The way the Doctor acted in 'Snowmen' could've constituted a proper fall, like the way John Hurt's Doctor isn't worthy of the name 'Doctor'. He was bitter and alone and tired and didn't want to help anymore. He fell much lower in this episode than he ever did in 'A Good Man Goes to War' or 'Name of the Doctor'. So it's still great, but it's become a bit messier now he had to shoehorn everything into a single episode. I think he's juggling too many balls. He wants both standalone and serial. He has to pick one and stick to it. Bring back the two-parters and series 8 could be great again, and not just okay. I still have high hopes for the Anniversary tho.

Just to Let everyone know whats happening, John Hurt has already stated in an inteview that he is infact the 'real' 9th Doctor, meaning they're all pushed forward one after the reeboot. He is infact the Doctor from the time war, the 'bloodsoaked' one that killed billions in the 'name of peace and sanity' every single reference the Doctor has made to the time war is about him, he is who the Doctor was during the War. I Thought it was a genius idea to now introduce us to this 'Missing' doctor. And also John Hurt's appearence really did add to the whole 'battlescarred, old and weary' idea after a man fighting a war for years against the Daleks etc....Absolutely incredible, best Finale in the History of the show and it really has blown the story open in a fantastic way, Roll on 50th Anniversary (in which John Hurt has already said he plays the Doctor in a sort of 'Trinity' with Smith and Tennant.

I can answer your first bit. Sort of. There are two events which occur at Trenzalor. One of which we have seen ('The Name of the Doctor'), one of which we haven't (Where the Doctor dies and is buried there). It's possible that the fall of the Eleventh and the battle with the Silence occur in the events we haven't (yet) seen. The Silence might be worried about the events which end up in the Doctor's death rather than those involved with Simeon.

As for using the Silence rather than the whispermen, personally I dont understand why they didn't use the Yeti rather than the whispermen.

Vastra didn't change because I guess the Doctor never directly saved her life (Yeah its a bit squonky I know - the whole rewriting of history is very difficult to pull off because people dont think four dimensionally, it's never going to work properly so I tend to give them a pass on that)

Why does Clara only see eleven Doctors? That strongly implies the 11th Doctor is the last (booo), using the current console room also implies that.

Clara not remembering the book, only bits and piece were coming through, maybe she'll remember more later.

Woman in the shop, that was only a thing fans latched onto, we dont know what caused Clara to get the Doctor's number, the fact that the Doctor doesnt actually have a number means its more likely to be due to the connection between Clara and The Doctor itself.

Hand of Omega, we didnt seen much of the scene with the first Doctor, so it could have been put in there first.

Bingo. But I have a little idea.

In the montage of clara and the other doctors you could see her in the tardis. ( as one of the earlier companions?) How is this possible? well

In my view.. she was fragmented and scattered throughout the doctors timeline to constantly save him from harm. ( Clara as all of the companions?) But because the doctor is, firstly murdered, by the G.I. at every time he constantly is a paradox .. thus, in some way, creating the cracks of season 5.
This would explain why the cracks closed when they ate the doctor.

So, pls correct me if i'm wrong?

When you said " Is that the regeneration count used up then?", we have to remember that River Song gave up all of her lives to save the Doctor in Lets Kill Hitler. So presumably, Moffat has fixed the problem of the Doctor running out of lives in the near future by all of River's lives being added to the Doctor's.

They didn't show what it actually looks like. They just showed what would blend in with the wall around it in the repair shop.

I'm sorry if this has been answered already (or was clear from the show, which I haven't re-watched yet) but can somebody help me with this point? Is the suggestion that Clara was splintered through time and sometimes looks like her but in other times her presence manifests itself as somebody else? I.e the Doctor's previous companions were all 'Clara'? That was my first impression, hence she was wearing clothes that looked like those of old companions (Ace, for example). I figured they'd just shown us her looking like Clara as a televisual aid. That would explain why the 11th didn't remember her when, actually, he'd met her before (as the 1st, and at a pretty momentous time in his life, which you'd think he might remember).

If that's the case then why does she only look like 'Clara' in the three incarnations that the 11th meets her?

Or, is it just that she's always been there in the background in addition to the companions? In which case, how on earth has he never noticed her before (if she's saved him a 'thousand times'?

Sorry if I'm being thick

Those words really bugged me. They should've never been part of the episode: not necessary, plus they ripped us out of the story, and they also contradicted what the Doctor had just spelled out: that man is him, but he is NOT part of the self he calls "The Doctor". Funny, but it bugged me the same way as someone referring to the Doctor himself as "Doctor Who".

So why all the hype behind it?

but he still used up the energy for one regeneration

No, she's always herself. She hasn't "always" been there, but has been bubbling into the Doctors timeline as he gets closer to the point where she allows herself to be split in order to save him.
She is undoing the changes to his timeline that the Great Intelligence is trying to do himself - but originally the Doctors timeline did not involve her.

I was wondering if he absorbed all the regeneration energy of every Time Lord that died in the Time War. That would also explain the 507 line SJA

IMHO, I'd say she's more a part of the TARDIS and of the Doctor himself than part of each companion. Just my own interpretation.

People do make mistakes. It's called being human. Anyway, what puzzles me is this, why are so many of you sure JH is playing a secret hidden Dr? Sorry, but yesterday was the first time I have heard of this secret hidden Doctor. And yes, I have read the books, listened to the audio etc. How do you people, most of whom appear to be only Part Time Whovians, know of this secret Dr, are absolutely certain of what he did in the time war etc, yet I, seem to be oblivious to his existence?

Sorry, but, did Steven Moffat issue you all (as his fanboys) memos but neglect to send any to the people that criticise his writing, sometimes?


But i have a theory about the cracks and the tardis explosion.

the cracks are created because the doctor is a paradox. ( the GI is killing him at every time at once.) This would explain why the cracks closed once they ate the doctor.

A second idea. You could see Clara in the tardis as a former companion.
Is she so scattered next to the doctors timeline that she is in fact some part of ALL of the companions? Always destined to save that man....

what do you think?

Yes, you seem to know the entire history of this Dr who isn't. an I ask where you are getting your info? Because I had no idea this secret Dr existed, until yesterday. But you seem certain it's the time war Dr, even though, most people thought that was PM's Dr.

I'm with you... I'm still holding out for one version of Clara to be CAL, the little-girl brain of the Library... and I'm so pleased that this ep didn't ruin my hope! Rather, it supports it!! Thanks, Moff!!

Ah, that makes sense, I think, thanks. But how, then, does the eleventh remember her from Asylum of The Daleks and Victorian London? If she has been dropped in retrospectively, following these events?

I think it's like the cracks - time isn't fully written in advance, but as the event that causes them gets closer time begins to be re-written.
So although the cracks are present at every point in time and space, the Doctor only encounters them as he gets closer to the event that caused them in his own timeline.
Likewise he only encounters Clara as he gets closer to the event that caused her to be splintered through time.

That works, thanks. Although I quite liked the thought of her being all the companions, to some extent or the other!

Really, you have a 12-year-old who had trouble following this one? I seriously doubt it. Kids deserve more credit than that. And BTW, this is not a KIDS' show. It's a FAMILY show. There is a huge difference, which we can all explain if you like.

Probably for a similar reason to you mispelling Tennant's name. Stuff happens. ;O)

I agree that John Hurt's Doctor is who he was BEFORE he became the Doctor. That's what I got from the explanations given. I'm rather surprised how many people are trying to wedge him in numerically when it makes much more sense for him to be a "prequel".

I do believe you are correct

The first time he ever met her, she died to save his life... and she already knew and loved him. Her mystery, devotion, bravery, etc. fascinated him from that day, and from there his love and respect for her blossomed.

It would make sense if Hurt was the Doctor inbetween McGann and Ecclestone. He is the Doctor (or whatever he called himself) during the Time War. So the secret would be this version who clearly did bad things. I like the idea that the Doctor has always been running, but what about if he decided to stop. Remember how he dealt with The Family. He's scared of what he will do if he stops running. Perhaps Hurt's Doctor stopped running. We assume that he did something bad to stop the Time War, but what if part of the secret is that he started the Time War?

Agreed!!! Which would be why he can't tell anyone his real name. There must be a hugely important reason he has to keep his true identity secret. Wow... I never thought of the Doctor as being a Clark Kent equivalent before...

Yeah I lost my business, and my friends (none of whom are old-Who watchers) were nonplussed at the strength of my reaction. I mean, they understood that it was the past Doctors- but there's nothing quite like seeing old friends again is there?

Someone pointed out last week that RTD wrote brilliant characters but not so good stories, and Moffat writes great stories (if rushed) but lousy and repetitive characters. That's why most of the best episodes were Moffat's scripts with RTD's characters. Clara has been a complete non-character this series. She's fast talking and quick witted (exactly like Amy and River), and that's about her only consistent personality trait. She's intermittently brave, incredibly intelligent (where did her techno-skills go after the first episode?), a great military leader, selfish or selfless, strong or fragile as the story demands. Can anyone pin down one thing about her besides being fast-talking and flirty (like all of Moffat's other women)?

As much as I want the Valeyard, watching it back I think it implies he's Eight or between Eight and Nine. This is such an amazing move, and great casting- the pain in those eyes right at the end is chilling

Wow. What a triumph. As I was watching it, I was thinking that the episode had single-handedly saved a very patchy series 7B. And that was even before the last few minutes, which just took my breath away in it's brave audacity. Bravo.
Makes me wonder if Moffat had taken his eye off the ball for the rest of the series by focusing his creative powers on this and the 50th episode.

A minor grumble would be the GI's weak motivation for it's plan. But that's more a reflection of the arc-light nature of the series, with which Clara had suffered from also. Basically, the episodes between The Bells of St John and this finale were completely irrelevant for the Clara/GI story arc. A waste I feel.

A question about River Song though. The last time we saw her was in The Angels Take Manhattan (TATM). In this episode, she is post-Silence in the Library (SITL) But why?
Moffat clearly needed to have her at Trenzalore to open the tomb (as she knows the Doctors name) but that can be a pre-SITL River. The psychic conference could have been River prior to SITL and post TATM. So he chose to have a post-SITL River for some reason.

As portrayed it seemed to be a sort of farewell scene for River, where she got some emotional closure on how the Doctor truly feels about her. Could be - and nicely done it was too I thought - but isn't that slightly repeating the end of SITL?
But her dialogue about why her connection to Clara wasn't broken, and the invocation of 'spoilers' suggest's that there's more to come from the Doctor's wife?

The novels, the audio's and all other material is conjecture. The only things that are 'canon' are on the TV show. So no matter what you think you know, you've only heard one possible side of it.

People keep getting hung up on that "when no living creature can speak falsely or fail to answer" line, but if you think about it it was River - someone who wasn't living - who answered. If it felt a bit of a cop-out then its one that was set up from the beginning.

Plus there was that line in the Sarah Jane episode in which the Doctor said something about having hundreds of lives.

Very interesting.

Just from knowing nothing about that guy to reading the first 2 lines on Wikipedia... that's a damn good possibility.

If he is an older McGann, then it would fit into the 'meta-theme' that seems to be happening in the background, with the various storylines representing 50 years of Doctor Who in some way.

The 8th Doctor and the rubbish TV film that broke with continuity and has thus been ignored = John Hurt, the 8th doctor and the actions that broke with the Doctor's promise and who has thus been ignored/forgotten.

Oh, and get Hurt, McCann and Eccleston together on set for gods sake, and finally fill in the blanks.

Yep.. saw him on frame by frame pausing...

Basically they'll hand in scripts to Moffat, and Moffat will tweak parts of them to fit the arc narrative. Some showrunners are very hands on, others won't be.

Sounds spot onto me.

I am so grateful that Moffat lived up to and even exceeded expectation with this episode. The pre-credits sequence alone caught me totally by surprise and set me on the edge of my seat and shouting at the TV the whole way through!

I really tried not to expect much from this episode and whilst it was very focused on Clara and explaining her existence, that was fine simply because it allowed the last few minutes to exist. My guess is that the anniversary episode will now take place within the doctor's timeline (apologies to anyone else who may have already mentioned this pretty obvious theory as I haven't trawled through all the various comments as yet) and mean we celebrate with a meta-adventure through previous episodes of the show.

Congratulations Moffat on delivering the best finale of the new series so far, lets hope you can pull off something similar when Sherlock returns!

Moffats ego, when he changed history and claims he created Doctor Who!

He knows what the Valeyard looks like. He's a "future" Doctor!

Hurt being an older 8th would be the logical idea but moffit will probably make him an alternate or couldbe future doctor that gets erased. fingers crossed for the first.

We already saw what they looked like in their unadorned form in the War Games (ok, called SIDRATS but it was clear that they were Tardiss)

No, it was crap!

Go to your room, and watch The Deadly Assassin!

"Hurt was great"?. He was hardly in it, with no movement and little dialogue!

Isn't Gallifrey trapped in a time bubble?

The great time war book in Journey ttcot TARDIS must have been shown for a reason (Hurt is the 8th)
Also, Moffit please conclude some of your plots instead of continuing every series with no real answers to the overall story.
Much appreciated.

I'm going to pick up and run with the idea that others have said about JH being an older and battle scared 8th Doctor (the pictures of JH do look like the 9th's jacket and 8th's clothes underneath). There's been a few recent references to him being on his eleventh 'face' (not 11th version of 'himself') which would feel totally redundant now... You never know though. I'm 99% it's a Time War 'thing' we are about to dive into on the 50th anniversary though. You don't just commit genocide and walk on off to become someone who doesn't ever carry a gun without hating who you were. 'Breaking the promise'.

I never expected them to reveal the actual name of the Doctor I'm this episode. I can't help but feel that line of thought was always a red herring and won't be revealed for a while (unless they come up with an incredible story arc for it, otherwise it will just be an 'oh right. Is that one L or two?' moment. They have played with phrasings of sentences before now (think Forest of the Dead 'you don't say saved you say safe'). Why would you say 'Doctor Who? And not 'Doctor What'? On a literal level 'Silence will fall when the question is asked... Doctor Who?' Could refer to the fact the Doctor never wants his 'true' or even 'previous' self to be revealed. His own silence will fall... Maybe.
Also, just another thought R.E JH's Doctor, I'm sure I remember a line previously that said 'they called people back, even from their graves'... Not sure where I'm going with that but if anyone else can pick it up go for it!!

How can you use the word "logic" when you talk about Moffat?

Hurt's probably not going to be around for more than the one special, and Matt smith will escape the timeline by regenerating.

He WAS there. Very briefly. Just before the scene where Patrick Troughton runs by in his fur coat....... And then again later as Clara hits the timeline!


agree with everything you said, sir... except the 13 regens thing........ come on, that isn't going to be the case. :D

The GI said that a title the Doctor would eventually be known as is "The Valeyard"..... I had a slight nerdgasm over that. So surely they'll include it in.

John Hurt........ what an amazing actor. Seriously, the moment I heard his voice, I got chills. And the pain in those eyes!
Bloody hell, the 50th is going to be as 'epic' as every whining hater said it wouldn't be. Roll on November!!!

RTD (who wrote it) later mentioned in an interview that it was indeed a joke.
The 13 lives won't count, they'll say that because the Time Lords no longer hold sway over the Doctor, they can't limit his regenerations. Or something like that.

No real answers to the overall story?! Wtf were you watching?
This episode was brilliant and nothing but praise should be showered upon Moffat. (Try and learn to spell his name).
Much appreciated.

You could see Tenth's coat in the final scene as he ran by quickly. And his voice was heard earlier on :)


RTD (who wrote it) said later in an interview that the line was intended to be a joke. :)

You wouldn't tap that?!

Nah, he snogged her in the xmas special and made slightly lustful comments at the end of last weeks ep about her.

Of course, that would mean she was also Adric ;)

Not sure. How would they have known that it was the Doctor's absence from their own history that led to their destruction? It's like trying to prove a negative.

Also, Moffat would have had them involved directly. It's too big a plot point to happen without actually addressing or featuring them. Knowing him, he's got something else stored up for them ;)

Is... is that the end of River Song? Really? I really hope not.

When she was introduced, I thought the whole point of River was to be a recurring character with a really good time travel twist: that she and the Doctor's love affair went in opposite directions. By that logic, the last time we meet River should be the *first* time she meets the Doctor. That looked like a really clever approach and, provided the character didn't crop up too often, could have been done well over a fairly long period of time.

If they've chosen to wrap her up like another companion, I'll be very disappointed, because it will have taken the big timey-wimey character hook (character anti-development!) and removed it to little effect.

Unless of course it's just *this* River, the all-knowing end-of-the-road River, that's left. In which case, that's slever.

Noooooo, The Other.

GOOD theory--I think Hurt is either--as you postulate, the version of the Doctor that ended the Time War--it does beg an explanation of why we didnt see him as the Atraxi scanned Matt--BUT--IF he's NOT "the Doctor" because he "broke the promise" THAT in itself could be the explanation--meaning he also NEVER protected the Earth in that incarnation. As for the regen "rule"--i have read an article where Moffat suggested that that doesnt apply anymore & it could be explained, I think, by the regen energy River gave him to save his life--meaning, it not only did that, but gave him more regenerations to boot. Also, on another point--though we MAY have seen the end of River--and if so, that was a beautiful & heartbreaking farewell--I still have the feeling that we havent.--obviously her consciousness can leave the Library & I dont think THAT version of her will ever "fade" as long as CAL is in operation. I think the Doctor meant his ability to always see & hear her should have faded & perhaps NOW it has, BUT--she is still alive in CAL.

I have read an article where Moffat basically said that the "13 rule" doesnt apply anymore--he didnt say why, so he either knows he'll write around/out of it or ALREADY has--I think it could easily be explained by the regen energy River used to save his life actually giving him a new set of regenerations

It's a good theory but if the Doctor can explain the explosion why then does he later say, in the closing scene of The Big Bang, "Space and time isn't safe yet. The TARDIS exploded for a reason. Something drew the TARDIS to this particular date, and blew it up. Why? And why now?"

just looked at that scene - when Amy asks specifically why the explosion happened The Doctor says "Good question for another day"

There is (I think) a fleeting glimpse of Eight - he's the one who walks in front of Clara just before Two appears... the costume looks like his to me anyway (from the couple of frames he's onscreen)

Glad someone else saw it too (sorry I didn't see your post before sending my own)

The pre-credits sequence had me tingling - fantastic to see the other Doctor's worked in and I thought it was pretty well executed. Seeing William Hartnell steal the TARDIS (who knew an un-chameleoned TARDIS looked like a giant loo roll?) was worth the agony of sitting through the Rings of Akhaten earlier in the series.

JLC has fast become my favourite companion since the Baker days; hope they keep her around for a while.

Series 7 had some great ideas, but poor plots let it down at times and there were some real missed opportunities. However, 'Name of the Doctor' gave us a genuine classic.

Point taken about River, but it still looks odd if you give due emphasis to the "can" in Dorium's line, like so - "...when no living creature CAN speak falsely or fail to answer", because it does look like the Doctor succeeded at "failing to answer". So, just as a throwaway thought, is it that "What is your name?" was not after all the question that Dorium was alluding to, despite all the appearances to the contrary? I'm coming from the direction that I suspect that the now-confirmed series 8 will be Moffat's last, and I think that he's going to have quite a few loose ends to tie up. As just my personal opinion, I don't feel that I've had full and final closure on the "Silence" arc, and there are other odds and ends like when and how did River learn the Doctor's name (which she didn't do at their "wedding", I believe) and the missing ages 18 and 23 on the flyleaf of Clara's book; there are probably others that I'm not calling to mind just now.

This was actually a wonderful episode! It provided a very fitting solution to the Clara mystery and even explained which Clara is the original, though that had been hinted earlier by the leaf business.

Not at all sure, however that the whole exploding Tadis, crack in the universe, "Silence will fall" business has been explained. Still.

Very nice reveal of the John Hurt version as well, and a great segue to the anniversary special. Interesting that for all the Doctors we kept seeing, we weren't seeing much if any of Tennant ...

If hurt is the McCann-ecclestone missing link then maybe it means mcganns doctor was stripped of his title before the destruction of the time lords for some reason forced to regenerate and then hurts doctor committed the genocide of the time lords (and daleks) somehow in a bitter rage at the loss of status (as well as regeneration disoriontation) and then reassumed the role afterwards as he now had no opposition. The modern doctors have been trying to make amends since. The time lords from tennants last episode would have come from before these events. Perhaps Tennants breif time lord victorious mantra was a glimpse of this side of the doctor.

I really liked the fact that it was focused on Clara as she's been on the sidelines in the last couple of episodes and she needed an episode to push her story forward.

I know, most figure John Hurt's Doctor to be the real #9, but I'd love for it to be the Valeyard.

Sorry if this has been postulated already, but what if Hurt's Doctor is somehow the amalgamation of the negatives the Doctor has witnessed? He feels the weight of all the deaths, pain, loss, suffering, ageing, etc. What if he is a manifestation of a thousand years of the negativity of time travel, and he is now given life because The Doctor crossed his in own time stream in the most extreme of ways? He is not a regeneration, but he is a döppleganger of a 1000 year old alien?

Anyway, this ep. was amazing on so many levels. Excuse me as me brain rattles away in wonder.

That line was a JOKE !!! It was so obvious, the way he answered that to Clyde which was annoying him.

Uuuh ?? Are you serious ? John Hurt is the name of the actor ! He's very famous.... He played in Alien, Indiana Jones, Harry Potter, V for Vendetta, Merlin, 1984, Elephant Man...

I still have no idea. Because people are unable to understand humor. That line was a joke, it was really obvious in the episode, Clyde was annoying the Doctor with his questions, so the Doctor didn't dare to answer seriously. That's all.

I'm pretty sure he's NOT an aged 8th Doctor, they would have rehired Paul McGann and added him some make up to make him look older. And the 8th Doctor was called the Doctor and battled in the Time War. I guess he was killed and regenerated into John Hurt. Then into Eccleston. He's the lost Doctor, and he can be the Valyard too. Why would there be 2 different evil Doctors ? It's more logical that John Hurt dark Doctor is the Valeyard.

This series has not been bumpy at all. It has been consistently good if not spectacular. But this finale was truly mind blowing. Thanks Steven Mofatt

The Hartnell bit didn't look to bad. Better than the Troughten sequence, anyway.

I'd rather have a competent one. Been a while since we had one of those.

I suspect, given the nature of Moffatology, the two ideas would not be incompatible.
A 9thish Doctor would have to have done something pretty reality-shattering and high-level to result in the extinction of both sides in a war conducted through all of time. This could be made to result somehow in the "notness" or "otherness" of that incarnation, a sort of intermediate damned and tortured persona existing outside of currently established time. So he could be made to slot in anywhere in the chronology, (perhaps when the Doctor's psyche is split open or some such jazz), and that could be compatible with the notion of the Valeyard.
I'd still quite like the Clare Bloom bit cleared up, please.
Has Silence fallen or not - and should we care?
Do the "dark times" when the Doctor was looked after by the Scooby Gang refer to his post-Pond depression or, much further back, to his post-Time War fug?
I've never been all that fond of the multi-Doc stories myself (they've always seemed a bit, well, panto), but this season is all about tribute (on every conceiveable level) and they couldn't really not do it.
As always, it doesn't pay to expect the expected with Moffat!

The only twelve year old I've met who's ever had trouble understanding Doctor Who is my sister, and she's been known to find Peppa Pig complex at her current age.

The only problem with thinking that John Hurt could be the 8/9th Doctor and was the one that fought in the Time War/committed genocide is that the 10th Doctor did it too. He sent the Time lords 'back into hell', which with the current theories, is what John Hurt's Doctor has done/did(tenses are funny)... So why is the 10th Doctor not 'hidden in memory'? The half human Doctor did it too and he just got packed off to a parallel world with Rose.

The question he has been running from all his life 'Doctor Who'... Well the time war isn't his whole lifetime (or is it?). What started the Doctor running in the first place, why did he only have his granddaughter with him, where was the rest of his 'family'?

I think John Hurt is the aged Human Doctor and the terrible thing he did was trying to steal the throne in King Ralph.

I think John Hurt is the aged Human Doctor created in Journey's End.

How would MS's Doctor know about him if that's the case?

The first time I watched the episode, I'll be honest, I absolutely hated it. I kept thinking of all the awesome possibilities there were for this episode and they missed them. I watched the episode again today and feel better about it. I still think it was a bit anti-climactic (until John Hurt). This awesome villain (Great Intelligence) that has been around for a lot of Who history wasn't given the proper set up in earlier episodes of the season so this revelation of his master plan fell a bit flat. Although, there was already way too much going on in this season to begin with, the timing was bad. Having long time companions leaving and then throwing in a whole new massively complicated story line mid-season, there is no way they could have done this new story justice. It was just too overcrowded.
Then, there is River Song. I didn't think her presence was really needed in the story line, if you remove her, events could have happened pretty much the same way, the Doctor is clever after all. I've never cared for her character, although she has had some awesome moments. I never really bought into her and the Doctor's relationship and marriage. I never felt the chemistry there, and while I understand her love for him, having watched her timeline in the proper just always felt like more of a flirtation than anything else and anytime they have tried to make it seem like a deep love has always seemed forced. They would have had to do a lot more to convince people that the Doctor really loved River, because it was VERY clear that he loved Rose. (And for the record he was able to properly say goodbye to her at Bad Wolf Bay.) My only other thought on River is that we already know that 11 has his last night with her before sending her to The Library. In one of the mini-episodes, Night and the Doctor: Last Night, it is revealed that he is taking her to the singing towers (last place they went before The Library). So it is confirmed, even though we didn't get to see the whole thing, it has already happened to him.

As for John Hurt, they may have introduced him as The Doctor, and he may start out that way but I don't think that's who he really is. He becomes something else, something that makes him no longer worthy of the name Doctor, he breaks the promise. The Master once commented on the Doctors' name choice "Doctor, to make people better." Obviously whoever Hurt is, he didn't do that. If he is not REALLY the Doctor but the Valeyard (which they made a point of mentioning that name in the episode) then he is actually an off-shoot of the real Doctor. I suppose it could be similar to 10's clone, all the memories of the doctor, everything, but not technically a regeneration. 10's clone was a biological meta-crisis not a regeneration, and whatever created the Valeyard wasn't technically a regeneration either it happened in between regenerations. So if that is true, then Hurt's "Doctor" is separate. Maybe he could be counted as the new season's villian??? They have done it before (Series 6) The Valeyard wanted the destruction of the Doctor and the universe, yeah I probably would keep that part of me a secret too.

But, overall, I think the episode has sent the show in a potentially awesome direction.

Ok I need to catch up with classic Who! But the Doctor himself referred to "all my future lives" when talkingg about the timeline. I'd guess we can take that as a hint that he wpn't be killed off in 2 doctors' time.

I don't mean the actor lol, I meant the character, the version of The Doctor he was playing, I just worded it wrong.

Nope it makes no sense. William Hartnell is the first Doctor and he never regenerated before, it's the original one. Thus, Matt Smith said that John Hurt is the one "who broke the promise", meaning, some before him hold on the promise. The only place he can be in the chronology is between 8th & 9th because we never saw this regeneration.

It actually made perfect sense ! Everything has been wrapped up nicely ! We now know why the Doctor told his name to River, because she whispers it on Trenzalore. We know why the universe cracked in season5 and the Tardis exploded, because the Great Intelligence tried to killed the Doctor in all of his time line at the same time, thus creating an incredible paradox. We know why Clara died twice, because, trying to save the Doctor from the Great Intelligence, she echoed herself thoughout all his timeline. And there was the big revelation that there was a lost incarnation of him during the Time War who didn't wear the name "The Doctor". How was it disappointing ??? All of this was done in only 45 minutes, that was brilliant !

Well to me he is The Doctor too ! It's just that Matt Smith refused to consider him that way, because of what he did. But what he did, he had no other choice, it was the war.

Because later in the Doctor's timeline, he will give his name to a younger incarnation of River, knowing that she will whisper it in this episode and that in the end he's saved by Clara.

For the dazillion time, that line in SJA was a JOKE ! He was bored as Clyde was very annoying, so when he asked him how many times he could regenerate he didn't dare ton answer seriously. It's that simple ! A time lord has 12 regenerations, so 13 lives. BUT he can get extra lives. Like when the Master was resurrected and given a whole new pack of 12 regenerations. Or when River gave the Doctor ALL her remaining lives.

Because it's logic ! If Matt Smith knows him, he has to be from the past. And if he broke a promise, it means he can't be the first Doctor, because it means the previous Doctors hold on the promise. And as the ONLY regeneration we didn't see was between 8th and 9th during the Time War, that makes him the secret Doctor between 8th and 9th, thus the "real" 9th Doctor, but the following incarnation retconned him as a Doctor, as they consider he broke the promise.

Oh ok lol, the way I read it, I thought you thought "John Hurt is his original name" XD

Sorry, actually it was me who didn't understand ^^

First time on here,I was just wondering if anyone thought john hurt dr was an older 8th dr reaching the end of his life and changed at the end of the time war and caused the time lock to happen,as we never saw the 8th dr in the drs time lines?

i for one hope that river returns for the 50th special. she's my absolute FAVORITE character of all doctor who (maybe even more than the docter himself!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Steven Moffat reminds me of David Lynch. And Damon Lindelhoff. They all seem to share the same agenda. Terrible writers, that can't write a coherent story, which pretentious morons seem to hold up as some kind of work of art, hail them geniuses, because they claim "we get it", even though, most of the time, the only thing to get is dreadful dialogue and a lack of a cohesive story. I will admit, I liked yesterdays effort, mostly because of JH and the homage to the older Dr's, but upon second viewing, just like Prometheus, and just like Mullholland Drive, the whole thing falls apart in it's own internal logic.Or lack thereof. This is exactly why I only watch Who once, now, except the odd episode, namely the one's not written by Moffat. This guy struggles to write three episodes of Sherlock a year, despite the fact, that's already been written, and all he really as to do is translate it to modern times. Not exactly the hardest thing ever, most children are able to do that by the time they have the developmental age of 5.

Which is why I said he must be the Valeyard. That would at least, make some kind of logical sense.

And the writing wasn't? Still, as a fan of the show, you should still try to enjoy it or what it is, even though it's now a mere shadow of it's former self. Trust me, it drove me mad, hating the show I loved most because SM was ruining it, but now I just watch it without thought, it makes it a whole lot more enjoyable.

I knw that, I meant the actors actual age. JH would make a fantastic Dr, at least he can act, unlike chin boy.

Are you my mummy? :)

Apparently anyone who says this doesn't know what they are talking about, i's a secret Dr, nobody knew about until now, after Moff dreamed him up:)

Just retcon that line it allllllllll makes sense.

Three episodes of a ninety minute crime drama per series is hardly unusual in Britain, and the availability of the principal actors affects the regularity of those series; it has nothing to do with Moffat's writing speed.

David Lynch stories are more to do with themes than "coherent" story telling, but by your name check of Lindehof( whose principal crimes have been a disappointing final season to "Lost" and a poor rewrite of a poor script) I understand that you are using both(wrongly in my opinion) as examples of poor storytelling which is unnecessary convoluted while providing no real resolution and on this I can agree with you is an accurate description of Moffat's run on Who.

Sure, there has been great individual episodes and moments, but if it hadn't been for Matt Smith I think I would have bailed on NuWho like I did halfway through Tennant's tenure. I'm all for intelligent storytelling which demands thought from myself, but Moffat's gaping plot holes ask too much from my mortal imagination and I've long given up on his run making any sense.

That said, last night episode was actually one of his better episodes and had a better resolution to the Clara storyline than the mystery (behind those first two appearances) warranted which is a pleasant inverse of Moffat's usual finale shenigans. I could have done without the whole size of the monument being testament to the importance of the interned thing and the GI thing coming from leftfield and fizzling out into nothing. I really don't know what you were hoping to get from a second viewing so soon though, and I think you set yourself up for a disappointment on that score.

What bothers me even more is the fact that SOMEONE WAS BUILDING THEIR OWN TARDIS. Although maybe the end of the finale has finally shed some light on that.

Also the Almost!ARDIS is the same ship the Silence had.

Have to admit, I loved this episode -- this kind of writing from Moffat is what made me look so forward to him becoming the show runner (but then I found myself bitterly disappointed for most of his run) -- that said -- wow. I was blown away by the ending -- are we being played that John Hurt is the new doctor or is that actually true? Brilliant that instead of introducing the new Doctor through a linear-time regeneration, we're introduced to the new Doctor through crossing his timeline. Loved it!

I have a very bad feeling about this. Given Moffat's choppy, often hamfisted storytelling, it's entirely possible that the 50th anniversary will turn out to be a rehash of Superman III, with the Doctor split into good and evil halves with no regard for anything in prior show history. We've already seen a descent into derivative fluff in "Nightmare in Silver", with the Cybermen now completely channeling Star Trek's Borg; we can probably look forward to the introduction of a Cyberman Queen in some dismal upcoming episode.

As other have said, I'm hoping for better - like Hurt being the Valeyard, for example - but that doesn't work well with prior canon. Not that Moffat has much respect for that, and he's a sloppy enough writer to ruin even that by simply refusing to address such inconsistencies.

So I had to watch the episode twice to figure out if I was disappointed or effing loved it. And I found out that I effing love this episode. I was sold the moment Clara interacted with athe Doctor's previous incarnations. The emotional core of this episode is what's been lacking though out the entire half series. The way Matt Smith goes from happy in playing blind man's bluff to be completely devastated when Clara tells him about Trenzalore is a fantastic bit of acting.

not necesserily from what i heard mcgann wasnt the best doctor
also if hurt is Dark Doctor why is interested in peace?

that makes sense- its quite sweet actually

Because as he said he did terrible things, but only because he had no other choice.

I definitely think that Hurt will come in between the eighth and ninth Doctors, and I don't think this will change the fact that Smith is eleventh. This incarnation did something horrible (ie ending the Time War), that makes it so he can't even be considered "the Doctor" (at least by his future incarnations, and possibly by everyone else). So Eccleston could be the tenth incarnation, but the ninth Doctor. And maybe the reason why Clara didn't see this incarnation is because the Time War wasn't really a victory for the Doctor, so the G.I. didn't rewrite it and she didn't need to save him

That's my theory, anyway. :P

i think it was the silence who made the tardis explode there is a voice just before it explodes saying "silence will fall ", or it could be one of the silences enemie

If he didn't use the name of The Doctor why is he billed (in OTT fashion) as 'The Doctor'?

Also those who think it is the ninth because we saw no McGann, Clara does say she saw eleven faces.
Think again again,folks

I thought at first that McGann's and Tennants Doctors were not in it, but they are:

Paul McGann's Doctor (walks past Clara from left to right at 1:08, right before Patrick Troughton goes the other way - someone else spotted this, not me. Well done those eyes).

David Tennant's Doctor (bottom right, 35:28)

I've watched the last 2-3 minutes about 25 times now, just that same little bit. I love the music as MS explains that JH was the one who "broke the promise". Someone else already posted and excellent photo showing CE and JH's leather jackets, and mentioned that it looked like PM's waistcoat. The jackets are pretty much identical, maybe not exactly the same. The waistcoat and neck scarf are different colours/patterns but same style as PM. It must surely mean that JH is indeed the "real no. 9", as some have suggested. I really, really, really hope so, it would be fantastic way to introduce a new Doctor without even having a regeneration. So long as it's possible to have him back after the 50th in some capacity. The sadness and tragedy that JH exuded just from standing there, then giving a few words and turning, makes the hair stand on end. And that music too.

Someone hypnotise CE and make him come back for the 50th, and get PM of course for the episode he deserves. "Make it so, no. 1" as they say in Doctor Who and Star Wars.

Except MCGann DID appear in the episode, fleetingly. Hurt is the lost Doctor between 8 and 9, unworthy of the name

A shiveringly brilliant opening and an extraordinary, spine-tinglingly anticipatory ending, with a fine story in between. After six up and down episodes which never quite seemed to live up to their promise, this was it! And now we have several months of wilder and wilder speculation. Of course we love it! And has John Hurt ever been used to better effect?!

1) That's explained in "Silence in the library" which was a Tennant episode
2) No idea
3) How the Doctor and a companion always take down the episodes big bag i suppose
4) Er....what?
5) He can see his own tomb/enter his own timeline, he just really really shouldn't

You misunderstand what I (and a few others) are saying. Not that he's a prior regeneration--that he's either someone or something else much different from the Doctor we know... or just Hartnell before he escaped in the TARDIS and changed his name.

Maybe the Amost Tardis is John Hurt's Tardis?

I really hope it is her end. Smug and annoying, intrusive and another aspect of Moffet's uninterest in writing a Doctor Who story and his usual M.O. of writing a story about the Doctor..Grumph and puff

Clara never knew of the existence of John Hurt's incarnation of the Doctor. Does this mean that the Great Intelligence was also unaware of the existence of that particular incarnation, or not?

Is it possible that whatever Hurt's incarnation of the Doctor did that was "not in the name of the Doctor" was actually influenced by the machinations of the GI?

Is it therefore possible for the Doctor and Clara - now they are within his own time stream - to go back and redeem this other self and find a different way to accomplish what was needed?

I had the same thought about the billing which, although I loved it at the time, does seem a bit silly in retrospect. But then I suppose the ultimate aim is to entertain and it did that.

Welcome to DoG! I think a lot of people do believe that - read all of the comments here - there's plenty of speculation to go round! :)

I don't know if I'm being thick, but how, exactly is River even there? She's an "echo"? What the hell does that mean? And if she's just the echo of a dead person, how can her saying the Doctor's name open the tomb? Apparently only Clara and the Doctor (somehow) could hear her.

I thought exactly the same thing - that in some way she WAS all of the Doctor's previous companions (or many of them, at least to some extent). You're right - she did seem to be dressed like them - Ace's outfit was the one that stood out to me, too. I'd like to look at footage of the companions from each era and see if their costume's match what Clara was wearing because I'm not convinced that that ISN'T what was being said. After all, she was shown as being in the TARDIS at least twice during the incarnations of previous Doctors - how would she be there if she was just herself? She couldn't just wander in.

I agree that she is undoing the damage made by the GI throughout the Doctor's timeline, but I think you're extrapolating a bit too much beyond that. How do you know she's becoming more apparent as the Doctor gets closer to the moment when she makes her sacrifice (other than the fact that nobody thought to write her into the series until this year)?

Also - if Clara has manifested herself in all those different ways throughout time to fix the Doctor's timeline, then surely so must the GI have done. How did he appear, I wonder? Will that ever be used in a future story?

I understand that Hurt could be a reincarnation of the doctor between the 8th and 9th, but why would clara not recognise him when she seems to have seen all of the doctors after going inside his timeline? "I never saw that one, I saw all of you, 11 faces"

Okay, wait. The article up there says "(no visuals of Paul McGann, though)". If it's right, it supports my theory, just a little.

Are you SURE you saw Paul? I'm not sure, but I don't remember seeing him.

Not much of an extrapolation - it's the same thing that happened with the cracks and now that time is being re-written the Dalek asylum is not the first time he's met her. Also that just tends to be how time works in Dr Who (see Tom Bakers example of leaving Sutek to his own devices).

It was absolutely, no doubt about it, the best finale in Moffat's run if not the entire new Who series. It may be able to rival my favorite episode of Doctor Who. It held you in its grip till the end and even then didn't want to let go, as I find myself wanting to rewatch it again and again.

I'm glad I've found a review that enjoyed it to the max that I did. Most of the reviews I've read say it's absolute awfulness. I found it exactly the opposite and I'm glad someone else did too :)

Smith sitting in the armchair upset at the mention of Trenzalore at the beginning of the episode was one of his best ever moments as the Doctor. :-)

Matt Smith's 'Doctor' told us who John Hurt's character is - he's HIM, without the 'promise' of the functional role that goes with the assuming of the title, 'Doctor', a promise he refused and has thereby 'broken'. The statement at the end is thereby somewhat misleading, because he'd only be one of the 'Doctor's had he accepted the role....but he didn't. Now, if I'm correct, THAT, for me, is a truly wonderful character for Steven Moffat to have introduced.....

Yes! Moff and company paid off "the impossible girl" mystery, which sort of clunked along for awhile, in a very satisfying way that is of absolutely fundamental importance to the overall story.

Just watched the episode again and am very impressed by how Moffatt worked the entire history of Doctor Who into the series finale without any pandering or overly cutesie moves, AND perfectly set up the 50th anniversary special.

What Doctor Who accomplished in this regard is a telling contrast to the most disappointing aspects of Star Trek Into Darkness.

She saw all of the Doctor's faces - that is to say, all of the Doctor's reincarnations we've seen on the show over the last 50 years. The Doctor stripped Hurt of the title "The Doctor" because of the awful things he had done (assuming Hurt is the reincarnation who was involved in the Time War). Clara never helped save Hurt, so she never saw his face.

I think it was to let everyone know that Hurt is without a doubt one of the Doctor's regenerations, and to do it tastefully and quickly. It's not an easy bomb to drop in the last ninety seconds of an episode. I think they pulled it off pretty well.
"Introducing John Hurt as one of the Doctor's Regenerations gone Rogue and Written Off in the Doctor's Book" would have been a little awkward.

Why is he billed as the Doctor?

Because no-one bothered to check the script for logic errors. Again.

Why was Clara even still alive when all of the Doctor's work had been undone? Why was Vastra?
Why did they kill that sun earlier in the season and leave everyone to suffer?
Why could the Statue of Liberty move so freely as an Angel when it must be looked upon so often?
Why were the burned up future echoes of The Doctor & Clara trying to kill them?
Why could the Doctor hold River Song?
Why could the Doctor enter his own timeline when the paradox of being even near it was supposedly near fatal?

Why did John Hurt even come with his own caption?

Fantastical things I love, stupid things that sometimes contradict what was said 5 minutes earlier, well, those you can keep.

Were they clear about where they were when they revealed John Hurt? The Doctor had to convince Clara that he was real, so maybe it was a kind of strange dimention based in the Doctor's mind. In whch case, I think John Hurt might be the man the Doctor might have become if he hadn't promised to become The Doctor - a wise man and healer and "a man who makes people better". John Hurt's Doctor could be a bizarro-Doctor. Or better yet, a creation of the Great Intelligence, who had reversed all the Doctor's victories and, potentially, hs most important descisons. Maybe we have a "Mirror, Mirror" kind of Doctor.

"with no regard for anything in prior show history"

I think that train has sailed long ago. We've had crossed timelines, we've had the Tardis sprouting holograms, it's really gone downhill of late.

Moffat isn't a terrible writer though, not for individual episodes. He's just proving to be a terrible showrunner.

Anyway I'm glad someone else is as disappointed with Who recently as I am.

I think he was John Hurt, because the caption, the caption that was actually on screen in the show itself, said he was John Hurt.

The 'promise' was actually explained by the Doctor himself in that same scene. He says that the name he chose for himself was a promise (presumably to make people better), and it is that promise which the John Hurt incarnation broke. That's why the Eleventh Doctor said it was him - as a previous incarnation of his person - but not 'the Doctor'. That incarnation forsake that name - or was denied it by subsequent incarnations - for having done something truly terrible.

It ties in to the 'name of the Doctor' concept the episode it named after. Clara went and saved the Doctor when he needed it to save the day. The fact that the Great Intelligence's meddling was changing the universe for the worse emphasises that the 'Doctor' is synonymous with making it a better place.

Yes, he brushes past Clara fleetingly before Patrick Troughton dashes past a second later. Really was a blink and you'll miss it moment.

I hope so too, but I enjoyed her generally. But things have to move on. She wasn't really needed here, it felt more about syrup than plot.

She was there, apparently because someone lit a magic candle and had a dream (where you can time travel, a well known fact, apparently even though it's never been mentioned before), then River got psychicly linked to Clara in a pointless meeting and somehow wifi'd through Clara from there on.

Load of tosh?
I think so.

I wouldn't worry about it, I think they were onto the absinthe by that point in the writing.

I am really the only one who had massive issues with the attendant captioning for Hurt at the end?

No-one else minded how it ruined the willing disbelief and pushed at that fourth wall?

What next? imdb links popping up for all the extras?

The point of fictional tv shows is that they're fiction, they don't go around pointing out who the bleedin' actors are.

Plus it was clear he's a version of (a man usually known as) The Doctor and there's no useful point in saying what his real name is.

I'm not sure I've ever seen anything like that in a show.

I certainly don't want to see it again.

I think the most simple way about going about it is the current lack of Time Lords. It was implied before that they had a degree of control over the amount of regenerations each Time Lord had (like giving the Master a whole new set of regenerations for the Time War). They could have temporarily removed that limitation for the Time War - including the Doctor's - and so it was never removed because of the way the War ended.

I agree. I think the Silence learned about Trenzalore and the importance of Doctor's name in relation to that place and what it would mean for the Great Intelligence fulfil its plan (the stars going out etc). Ironically, they probably actually wanted to preserve the legacy of the Doctor's actions by ensuring he could never answer the question "Doctor who?". The Silence rationalised that it would be better to stop the Doctor after he had done enough to save the Universe and then take a stand against any upcoming threat as it comes (just like the Alliance in 'The Pandorica Opens').

Their first attempt in stopping the Doctor reaching Trenzalore was to blow up the TARDIS. This had the unintended consequence of destroying the universe. Realising their tactical error, the Silence went after the Doctor directly. After his ruse, they were satisfied with their 'success' and thus were not present in Trenzalore in this latest episode. They may have dissolved entirely.

Why they didn't go after the Intelligence directly is beyond me, but maybe it was simply too clever, covered up its own tracks and was never identified as the perpetrator (which, judging by 'The Bells of St John', is entirely plausible).

Yeah, but to all intents annd purposes this could be viewed as Part one of a two part 50th special

The Tomb on Trenzalore WAS the 11th's tomb so they are already suggesting there wont be a twelth. Though anything can happen. My theory is that the John Hurt Doctor was a split from EIGHT. I reckon whatever he needed to do to end the Time War was so bad that Eight had to split himelf in two achieve it. Maybe he had to be literally in two places and times at once. One half (Hurt) stayed to do the deed, while the other (Ecclestone) escaped to carry on. Maybe he used some sort of variation of the Chamelean Arch?

I, personally, want to find out more about the Great Intelligence. I mean, the 3 episodes he was in, not much was actually explained about what it is. From what its name suggests, the purpose of its existance was to gather infomation about The Doctor but now its dead with no explanation. Personally, I think this isnt the end of him but I guess we'll wait 6 LONG months to find out.

The G.I referred to names eh was known as ... Storm (Oncoming?) Beast and The Valeyard. I wonder is John Hurt is The Beast Doctor...whatever that is

You expect totally linear storylines from a show that involves time travel?

Your sneering tone is unnecessary.

Could be. The one weak link in the episode is that we didn't really see how Clara 'saved' him, nor how the Great Intelligence went about changing the Doctor's history.

As wonderful as the flashback montages were, all we saw was events unfold as they already had...with Clara on the sidelines. She herself said that most of the time the Doctor didn't even notice her.

Apart from telling the first Doctor to opt for a different TARDIS, she didn't seem to have much of an impact

Or they wanted to kill the Doctor before he had a chance to go to Trenzalore. I suppose they presumed that naturally the Doctor was the only one who knew his own name...and without him, the tomb couldn't be opened.
Their prophecy didn't factor in River Song.
(Though I'm still not sure how she actually knows the Doctor's name)

Loved this episode, but in truth is was all just one big prequel for the 50th anniversary episodes.

An excellent review.

This has been my major problem with Moffat's run on Doctor Who; everything ends up being a prequel for the next story arc or mysteryJust like most of the episodes feel rushed in their allotted forty five minutes through no reason other than a fear of leaving audiences bored for more than five seasons, Moffat's story arcs bizarrely can't be told within a full season and it's all build up and middle with maybe a few loose ends tied up before rushing non stop into the next big idea. What I would give for this show to actually stop now and again and actually develop something rather than tossing a bunch of ideas and scenes at me, but it's NuWho we are talking about here.

To be fair, he did it all in 45 minutes by doing what he's been denying all the other writers this season - by making it into a 2 parter.


"Then I'll have to find another name, because I won't be the Doctor any more" - The Beast Below (the 2nd episode of Moffat's run).

Well my view is that the plot is far too complex for the family viewing that is suppose to be the audience. Although as a SciFi fan Im into the convoluted plot and the constant questions.... My kids have lost interest in Doctor Who.

If my kids loose interest, lots of others do and the spiral down starts.

Lets get this story out of the way fast and return to the formula that worked so well for Moffat's predecessor.

Thanks for clearing that up! :p You're completely right, though. The "Conference Call" was typical Moffatt - silliness taken too far. Not that I think everything he does is bad, but he does let his mischievous, whimsical side get carried away sometimes.

Haha no worries I didn't think properly while typing it down.

This last episode was the first properly good one of the whole series. Some great effects and a fascinating mystery. But they raised and then dashed my hopes that the annoying Clara would be killed off (or at least left in the past).

John Hurt's reveal was good, BUT it was utterly ruined by the silly caption text appearing next to his face: 'Introducing... John Hurt... as... The Doctor'. That was totally unnecessary IMHO. They should have just showed his face and put his name in the end credits. It was already clear that Hurt was a future Doctor.

Is it just me or did nobody have the faintest clue about Hurt's involvement? It seems to have been brilliantly hushed up. I could barely have been more surprised if Leonard Nimoy popped up!

Story-wise it's pretty clear to me that Hurt is the 'last ever doctor' ie. the last one before he dies, in the distant future. As such, he's going to make a fascinating opponent for the current doctor, as he knows everything that ever happened/will happen to him. I think its likely he destroys a planet and its entire population including himself, for some greater good, eg. to save the universe. This will turn out to be his 'big secret', ie. he destroys a planet in his future. Possibly Earth?

I actually feel that the crack in time has been explained indirectly. I think that the crack is just an error in time and space. Sometimes cracks might just open and someone has to close it. Another theory is that the exploding Tardis paradox created the cracks itself. I know that the cause of the cracks hasn't been officially confirmed but I think we, as the fans, can put the puzzle pieces together and figure out why. Wow, that last sentence sounds kind of cheesy.

The time travel in dreams thing is not as useful as a time machine, it doesn't actually move your body through time, at least that's how it seemed to me.

As far as I understand it, that's the last time he's going to see the River from his first meeting with her (after the library).

I suppose it's still possible he could bump into her again, but the idea was that they were going in different directions.

We don't know who blew up the Tardis.

And, er, no, the crack in the universe probably isn't a natural phenomenon. If it was, the Doctor might not have spent so many episodes fretting about it.

You're just citing fan theories, including your own. Which is cool, but not what I'm talking about.

Fan theories are ENDLESS, as we see here.

1) I know why River is data, I just don't know how Vastra got the information. We have to assume that she was told at some point. I guess.

2) Great xD

3) Well, lately, they took everyone down with the sonic screwdriver =P

4) Sorry, wrong pronoun, English is not my native language and sometimes thinking and writing at the same time is too much. I meant, where was the original Clara when the Doctor jumped into his timeline to save her? It was like some... limbo in between his whole timeline? Like the eye of a temporal hurricane? I know this one is just something I didn't completely get, not something they didn't explain.

5) The point being, that I thought THAT was a pretty fixed rule in this universe. I just don't like the whole "messing up the rules" Moffat does sometimes. Specially since the show has so few really fixed rules.

'We've had crossed timelines' - That ship sailed in 1972

I don't think we've seen the last of The Silence. My personal theory is that they weren't trying to prevent the Doctor's name from being spoken, but they were trying to prevent John Hurt's character/actions from being revealed.
I like the explanation of Clara, except for one part. I absolutely think Moffat goofed when he had her tell the Doctor which TARDIS to take. Why? Because he didn't choose the TARDIS, she chose HIM!! Having Clara there to tell him which one to take just sucks the life out of "The Doctor's Wife." The beauty of that episode is that the TARDIS loves her Doctor just as much as he loves her. She left herself unlocked for him because she wanted to see the world. Bad move, Moffat.
Please, please, please, PLEASE let that be the last I ever have to endure of River Song. I mean, I seriously didn't think I would make it through that. For the love of God and mercy, don't put me through any more! Leave her in the world of fanfic where she belongs!! (I am aware this is an unpopular opinion, btw. More than aware. But I stand by it).

1) Oh, I see what you mean, I can only surmise that the Doctor told her at some point, maybe when he was in his "cloud" stage?

3) Hah! It's depressing how often it's been overused this season.

4) I suppose that may be answered in the next episode (although your ideas sound quite plausible).

5) I don't think it's really messing with the rules, if you knew something was inadvisable under any circumstances wouldn't you just tell people it's impossible to save a long winded explanation?

i thought about that last night, silence could still fall as the riddle may also represent the doctor's future death. don't forget river was meant to kill the doctor, this may be because of john hurt's character and what he does.

what i don't want them to do is continue it for the sake of continuing it, there should be no magic recoveries, no extra regenerations etc.. it has to end sometime so it might as well end with style. as long as it is not a rushed ending then it will be great, too many programs have done that.

i know this

Indeed, but how would The Doctor recognise him? The Valeyard was supposed to be the penultimate Doctor, right?

The screwdriver was overused indeed, it solved problems almost on its own, the doctor was just holding it. Maybe Hurt is the screwdriver getting revenge because the Doctor takes all the credit.

Regarding 5, yes, but we've actually seen some pretty messed up situations coming out from paradoxes and crossing-one's-timeline-stuff. Now I'm just thinking about the stupid Rose-saving-her-father episode and the universe with everything happening at the same time. I'm sure there must be some examples in Classic Who too, even though I'm getting started with it. And this seems bigger. And a little tricky, in my opinion.

Yes he knows what The Valeyard looks like, but I doubt that JH is him. Especially since The Master states that he is the negative aspect of The Doctor, and JH's line would not make sense. The Valeyard wouldn't care about peace and sanity. That being said, if he is a lost regeneration, then we would be getting close to the rise of The Valeyard(11th Doctor 12th regeneration), and I cannot help but to wonder if this Lost Doctor may have something to do with it.

It's all wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff?

So... the Doctor obtains and dresses in Edwardian garb and adopts the name 'Doctor' BEFORE he leaves Gallifrey. I assumed he adopted both some point early in his travels. A bit conspicuous for a thief though!

Perhaps that would be the official explanation, but it was disappointing enough the first time it was used! :p

As a get out clause it's certainly as annoying as 'it was all a dream.' Just poor plotting trying to be passed off as clever dialogue.

That's a valid point. Good catch.

We also haven't seen the last day he gave her before sending her off to the library with his real name and a sonic screwdriver...

agree--shes right there with the Doctor for me

very true--they DID allude to it in the extras on the S6 DVD's where they showed that the Doctor & River were going on adventures basically EVERY night after Amy & Rory went to sleep, but they didnt SHOW him do so, though they did say they were going to the Singing Towers in one of the mini eps. Either way--she's, IMO, too good of a character for that to be the final farewell & the fact that her consciousness can leave the Library leaves the opportunity for both pre & post Library adventures. I doubt we''ll ever see as much of her as we did in S5 & 6 (since a lot of those seasons focused on who she really was), but I think that as long as Matt is the Doctor, River should remain a part of the story--she is obviously his greatest love over the course of his 1200+ years---the way he told her that he ALWAYS sees & hears her & then grabbed her & kissed her had me crying like a baby

and , as I said to another River fan below( I just dont get the River haters) In the extras on the S6 DVD's they showed that the Doctor &
River were going on adventures basically EVERY night after Amy &
Rory went to sleep, but they didnt SHOW him give her his sonic so, though they did say
they were going to the Singing Towers in one of the mini eps, there's still "room" for that to happen. Either
way--she's, IMO, too good of a character for that to be the final
farewell & the fact that her consciousness can leave the Library
leaves the opportunity for both pre & post Library adventures. I
doubt we''ll ever see as much of her as we did in S5 & 6 (since a
lot of those seasons focused on who she really was), but I think that as
long as Matt is the Doctor, River should remain a part of the
story--she is obviously his greatest love over the course of his 1200+
years---the way he told her that he ALWAYS sees & hears her &
then grabbed her & kissed her had me crying like a baby

Great season finale...I cannot WAIT until November. I just hope next season isn't broken up into two parts...too expensive on Itunes!

From a pair of fresh eyes (because I haven't seen most of the pre 2005 DW epis)...

"The Doctor has a secret he will take to his grave. And it will be discovered." That secret is Clara. Not his name because Clara knew his name and so does River Song. Clara is his protection...and it wouldn't suprise me one bit to find out that River Song maybe Clara's mother....psychic link...

I think Clara is another life form of the TARDIS just like River Song

I believe that the Doctor KNEW he had to get Clara to Trenzalore....check out his behavior when she follows him to the TARDIS ..he's expecting her to go with him to Trenzalore because he knows how it will must end...and he also knows he must connect her to the other Doctor....

...and just for fun....

I think Clara is the child of River Song and the Doctor but for some reason the Doctor doesn't remember.....hence Clara's echoing words ..."and remember me"....which is kinda weird too because Clara is the one that couldn't remember the Doctor each time they find each other. But I guess she will now because this was her first time dying?? Time travel!

Aha, yes, but in the beginning of the episode, not the ending! Not inside the timeline! This means Paul is unaccounted for, and John Hurt could still be an old version of Eight! And when they hire me to write the Anniversary Special they've already filmed, he WILL be! ;)

We might be splitting hairs at this point, but I think we're all agreed on where he falls in the chronology. We're just bickering about whether it's a mystery regen or not.

Oh, I like having fun stuff to think about again! :)

I think I'm going to reserve judgement until the next episode. We haven't really had chance to see if there was fallout from him entering his own timestream because it was right at the end of the episode.

Thought it was a marvellous play on words by Moffatt there. Ever since the 11th doc came into being, he's been inundated with fan forum posts and personal (not always polite...) emails demanding that the Valeyard ought to be popping up around about now.

Then to do an epsiode called 'The name of the doctor'- after having already established in both the
classic and the new series that it's the name that's chosen that matters for a Time Lord, not their birth-name (if they even have one - and there's never
been any indication that the Gallifreyans do; regardless, even if they do have a birth name, it's always been treated as utterly insignificant
compared to the name they give themselves), and suddenly decide to remind the audience that..actually....if the doctor IS to become the
Valeyard, it will happen by virtue of it being the one time that he CHOOSES to name himself the Valeyard.

Great play on the title 'Name of the Doctor' - as the whole setup is as an intro to that time where the Doctor takes on a DIFFERENT name.

I think my nerdgasm is going to force me to buy an entire new wardrobe, as the drycleaning
bill just isn't going to cut it. Apologies to my wife in advance, I don't think that I'll be in any fit state for husbandly duties for a few
weeks after a nerdgasm like that.

VALEYARD CONFIRMED FOR THE 50th ANNIVERSARY!!!! F******* YEAH!!!!!!! (not spoilers btw - they've
already advertised John Hurt as having equal billing with Smith and Tennant, and as a 'version of the doctor' other words VALEYARD!!!!! F***** YEAH!!!!!)

The only thing that could possibly make it better would be to give the Valeyard a full season arc as the 'big bad' - making full use of his capacity as the post-Smith doctor, knowing exactly how each of his previous incarnations think so that he can
predict their decisions even before they make them (including things like 'double-bluffs' - e.g. Smith and Tennant pretend to make a tactical
decision in keeping with their character, and then deliberate act irrationally to throw the Valeyard off...except that the Valeyard already knows that that's exactly what 10 and 11 would do in order to
throw him off, so he's already prepared for them to act irrtaionally as a fake-out:-). There's some utterly magnificent things that you could do
with the character as a season-long big bad.

But then again, anniversay specials should be classics in their own right, and a
Valeyard episode (with the great John Hurt as the Valeyard) is probably their best bet at making something in the same classic status as 'The
Five Doctors'. I just hope they make the anniversary a two hour special - there'd be both the fan base and the excpetional demand and patience for it, even if it took a little while to get going.

Thought it was a marvellous play on words by Moffatt there. Ever since the 11th
doc came into being, he's been inundated with fan forum posts and
personal (not always polife,,,) emails demanding that the Valeyard ought
to be popping up around about now.

Then to do an epsiode called 'The name of the doctor'- after having already established in both the classic and the new series that it's the name that's chosen that matters, not the birth-name (if they even have one - and there's never
been any indication that the Gallifreyans do; regardless, even if they
do have a birth name, it's always been treated as utterly insignificant
compared to the name they give themselves), and suddenly decide to
remind the audience that..actually....if thje doctor IS to become the
Valeyard, it will happen by virtue of it being the one time that he
CHOOSES to name himself the Valeyard.

Great play on the title 'Name of the Doctor' - as the whole setup is as an intro to that time where the Doctor takes on a DIFFERENT name.

I think my nerdgasm is going to force me to buy an entire new wardrobe, as the drycleaning bill just isn't going to cut it. Apologies to my wife in advance, I
don't think that I'll be in any fit state for husbandly duties for a few
weeks after a nerdgasm like that.

VALEYARD CONFIRMED FOR THE 50th ANNIVERSARY!!!! F******* YEAH!!!!!!! (not spoilers btw - they've already advertised John Hurt as having equal billing with Smith and Tennant, and as a 'version of the doctor' other words VALEYARD!!!!! F***** YEAH!!!!!)

The only thing that could possibly make it better would be to give the Valeyard a full season arc as the 'big bad' -making full use of his capacity as the post-Smith doctor, knowing exactly how each of his previous incarnations think so that he can
predict their decisions even before they make them (including things like 'double-bluffs' - e.g. Smith and Tennant pretend to make a tactical decision in keeping with their character, and then deliberate act irrationally to throw the Valeyard off...except that the Valeyard already knows that that's exactly what 10 and 11 would do in order to throw him off, so he's already prepared for them to act irrtaionally as a fake-out:-). There's some utterly magnificent things that you could do with the character as a season-long big bad.

But then again, anniversay specials should be classics in their own right, and a
Valeyard episode (with the great John Hurt as the Valeyard) is probably their best bet at making something in the same classic status as 'The Five Doctors'. I just hope they make the anniversary a two hour special - there'd be both the fan base and the excpetional demand and patience for it, even if it took a little while to get going,

Not even that clever!

In some ways the Christmas special served to expand on Clara along with the opening episode. After that there just wasn't enough development until the finale. Credit for not stringing it out but it's clear that Clara is essentially a macGuffin for the anniversary episode. Whether she has a life beyond that and gets further development is up for debate.

Sadly Hurt blurted it out to the UK press so it was known he would be playing The Doctor in the 50th.

I agree the caption was a bit much. Seemed to be done for the American audience.

So the 11th Doctor did fall (from a great height) and survived. No sign of "Silence will Fall" of course I presume this now means The Silence race who the Doctor finally defeat before his death.

I am starting to agree it is a good idea not to have all the currently alive Doctors return for the 50th. I watched the 5 Doctors last night and although a good laugh even with the four of them with companions it is hard to get any kind of plot going with so many actors. Can you imagine writing a story with 8th of them and companions. Much better to do something more in line with the three Doctors.

to me it seemed very much aimed towards the American audience and was a bad idea,

Plus John Hurt had blurted out he was playing the Doctor in the 50th and the Doctor said there was no one else here but him.

I think he was looking for a name in the very first episode and when he was called it by Barbara and Ian he decided to go with it.

River knows the Doctors name because he whispered it into her ear when the got married.

The time stream that the Doctor entered to save Clara was the entire time line for the Doctor, birth to death. That could have made it possible for the current Doctor to see future 'Doctors' and future events. Meaning the current Doctor would know what future regenerations would look like.....

I thought he only told her to look into his eyes to see that he was a robot Doctor Tessalacta with a mini-Doctor within.

Yes the episode suffered from Moffatis, too many things to do, too little time, this season itself has been slapdash at best, and obviously Moffat is overstretched. But I think that Moffat has had a masterplan for this episode and while he may have not been able to incorporate it well, I think it is deviously clever.

Here's the argument:

What Moffat did with the season finale was a great linguistic turn on the title of the show, thus pitting the Doctor against his ultimate enemy: himself. (if you remember in the previous season's God Complex episode, where the characters are trapped in a hotel with a room where they will meet their worst nightmare. The Doctor
enters a room, sees something and says "Of course. Who else?"

"The Eleventh will fall."

He will forget the promise his name holds and become the Doctor John Hurt, a dark doctor who commits horrible crimes in the name of peace.

So the question is, and has always been, the title of the show. Or rather Doctor Who in the sense that which of the Doctors are we meeting now? Is he the one that becomes the dark Doctor, a man who exterminates races in the name of peace, and in effect turns these races and entities into enemies hellbent on erasing him from time (the Daleks, the Cybermen, the Silence...etc... that united to
Pandorica him)?

Or is he the Doctor who doesn't let anybody die, the one that always
saves the day?

In a clever way, Moffat has personified the existential question inherent in the name of the show: Doctor Who? He is his name, but the question on everybody's tongue is which Doctor will he become? Every time he meets a companion they remind him of that question, lest he fail his promise.

On another note, this also is a clue as to who was behind the cracks in time. The Doctor Hurt is very possibly the one who engineered the explosion of the TARDIS in the Pandorica episode, as stated by the coalition of baddies: "Only the Doctor can pilot the TARDIS". Sure a few others have piloted it, but it makes sense that a Dark Doctor would be the one to blow it up in a way that cracks the universe

Remember the bangs that Clara hears when she is lost in the mist in the Doctor's tomb? Were those the sound of the Dark Doctor destroying the TARDIS throughout space and time? With his wife inside (as seen in the Pandorica episode)? All "in the name of peace of sanity."

So yeah, this episode, while saddled with throwaway baddies and twee companions, had the gall and the ingenuity to retcon the ENTIRE show, firstly by introducing a companion who is fragmented throughout space and time to keep him on the straight and narrow track AND by introducing the ultimate foil to someone who wants to fix the entire universe: themselves. When you are do things in the name of peace, you lose sight of the promise in the name of the
Doctor: to save lives.

And this is what Doctor Hurt is going to do.

The Silence's purpose was to *stop* Silence falling. Which happened (although not named as such this week) when the GI carried out its plan. Clara then stopped this. The Silence, of course, believed the Doctor to be dead so they weren't trying to stop it happening any more. I think Moffat should have found a way to make this much clearer on screen, but it does all fit together. What we have had are three series that cover three corners of the same big story: the result of Silence falling in the future (TARDIS exploding, although this could be considered to be an attack by the religious order the Silence instead) and the monster alliance trying to stop it happening, defeating the Silence's own attempt to eliminate the Doctor to stop this happening, and the GI's machinations in attempting to cause it in the first place (as well as Clara's destiny to fix it). The result of all this is the discovery of the Doctor's secret, and whatever that will lead to at the 50th (which may or may not give us another more poignant asking of the question, and may or not show a further result of "silence falling"). We've reached the eye of the storm, and the answers are starting to come now.

I did try to post on here before but my comments seem to have disappeared. Must be a timey-Wimey thing. Anyway, I thought the finale was great. However (and I apologise if this has already been discussed) but I didn't see an explanation for the missing dates in Clara's book 101 Places to See. Also, what was the relevance of the letter Clara received for the conference call having a date of April 10th. As the finale was 18th May why was a date needed for the letter?

Can anyone help with any answers? cheers.

I really don't want a Strax/Vastra/Jenny spin off. Strax is one of my favorite characters. He gets some cracking lines... "Oh no, not the one with the gigantic head!" Who gold! Overuse of him would ruin it for me.

River, I hope we've not seen the last of, although it would seem that way. I loved when her cup of tea turned into champagne :D

Now, who is Hurt? I don't think anyone has guessed right. I don't think he's an older 8, an 8.5 or anything in between Doctors. The Valeyard comment was probably a red herring. I don't think anyone will guess, just as no one guessed who Clara was.

Hello, old friend. I'm late to the party here, but Time Lords get 12 regenerations, which equals 13 bodies. I'm sure someone has already pointed that out...just thought I'd comment.

I loved the episode. I'm afraid to speculate how John Hurt will fit into the picture, but the cliffhanger was great! I was in Fan Heaven from when Hartnell first appeared right up to the closing credits. Best ep of the second half of the season. Finally Matt Smith played it serious like we all know he can when he needs to....heavenly!!!

Yup, that is what happened. He didn't tell her his name.

I always assumed that the cracks were a result of the exploding TARDIS. Was it not implied?
Could be wrong. Maybe I was just guessing.

I think they just fudged the explanation with "prophecies" and that.
Wibbly wobbly, timey-wimey prophecies.
I do hope the Silence return, though. They're a cool villain.

And we still don't know who blew up the Tardis.

Totally agree. At his stage Clara is two dimensional

Totally agree. At this stage, Clara is two dimensional and it's really affecting how much we care about her.

Agree with all this.

Who put River's name on a headstone, if it was a way in?

The Doctor before he died?

Actually, what are the Doctors bad sides?
In the new series it has ben foreshadowed that the Doctors darker sides involve him breaking the rules 'for the greater good'.
See Waters of Mars, Amy's Choice and A Good Man Goes To War.
NuWho seems to make the point that the Doctors darkest side is that he needs someone to restrain him. In the light of this, having the Vaeyard be a variation of the Doctor that is utterly unfettered by rules when he goes around, being the catharsis of spurious morality (in his own words) actually makes sense.
It also is a similar interpretation to Big Finish' 'He Jests At Scars' (what if story with the valeyard winning the trial) where the Valeyards first act after taking over the Doctors regenerations is trying to reverse what happened at Skaro during Genesis, and wipe the Dalek race out regardless of the consequences.

im sorry but I hated this episode its worse than asylum of the daleks and the snowmen combined a mess of an episode besides the first and last 2 minutes 2/10

I've always hoped that my own personal pet plotline would end up being used. That the doctor was actually a reincarnation of HG Well's time travel character from "The Time Machine" (I know HG has been on the show, shut up. They could still write around it). That time traveling character's name was never given either.

MY PLOT: Basically, if the time traveler (tt) hadn't time traveled, the Eloi and Morlocks (i.e. humanity) would have quietly died off on earth. The tt kept on adjusting humanity's timeline to avoid that future. He worked to defeat the Morlocks and help the Eloi prosper. In this, he ended up succeeding in the short term.

As he continued his efforts, the Eloi started calling him, "the Other". He recruited companions Omega and Rassilon to help. They eventually lead humanity to become the Time Lords (also gaining humanity the power of regeneration) and relocating them to Gallifrey, However, humanity had other evolutionary offshoots besides the Time Lords, resulting in Daleks, Cybermen, and the like.

So, instead of the tt's continual efforts resulting in a peaceful and prosperous future for humanity (i.e. his descendants the Eloi), his "adjustments" to the timeline actually spread harm far beyond earth. Cybermen and Daleks caused havoc across time and space killing untold numbers and eventually led to the Time War where the people he cared and nutured for so long died out.

The information that the Time Lords (aka Eloi) would eventually become extinct fighting the Daleks (aka Morlocks) drove Omega insane and caused Rassilon to attempt to militarize the Time Lords for the inevitable fight, resulting in him becoming increasingly dictatorial and ruthless.

The Other (the tt), ended up throwing himself in the Looms... basically adding his DNA to the tanks where new Time Lords are cloned. The Doctor is the reincarnation of the original time traveler (the Other) and learns all this history when he is presented to the Schism (i.e. the naked timeline). He takes the name "Doctor", because he is going to attempt to heal the damage that the tt did in trying to save humanity. The Other's grandaughter, Susan, later recognizes the first Doctor as her Grandfather and we know the story from there.

Watcha think?
I've tried to stick to established information/canon as much as possible.

Can't tell you! ;)

Sorry I didn't reply. TARDIS co-ordinates a bit off, silly old girl.
I meant series "7b", should have clarified.

The worst part about this episode is that Moffat has now laid claim to the entire back catalogue of The Doctor's adventures. SM would have it appear that The Doctor could have achieved nothing without a little retrospective help from Clara, the product of his mighty pen.

The Doctor in many recent episodes, this one included, has been an impotent figure, reliant on a companion who is a braver than he is, cleverer than he is and more perceptive than he is. This failing has now been projected back in time, powered by the force of SM's own ego, pretty much undoing everything that we thought we'd learnt over the last 50 years. The Doctor is now so helpless that he can't even be trusted to choose his own Tardis!

Yes, having John Hurt on the cast for the 50th is cause for celebration because, of course, he is a fabulous actor. But I would much rather have someone other than SM writing the words that Mr. Hurt has to say!

Well... I think the Doctor is supposed to have achieved all his victories as we always thought, but the GI has now gone back to undo them all, and Clara is putting it right again rather than being the original saviour.
eg: He (or rather the correct TARDIS) chose him. GI tweeked things so he'd have picked the wrong one, so Clara turns up to redirect him and set things right again.

I'm sorry, but I hated your opinion, it's worse than that of a drunken member of the Big Brother house. 2/10 for your POV.

No but we have seen her 'save' him twice, in Asylum of the Daleks and in The Snowmen. She jumped in his timeline so she's always at the right place at the right time to set something in motion

Just some of my musings - all very speculative!

People keep hammering about the no. of gens – whereas we can
all assume that that will never kill off the series this notion from the
classics. It’s a sci-fi show and it can be explained as to why the rule does
not apply anymore (because no more time-lords around prob.).

Then there is talk of the Valeyard.
<quote "the="" "watcher"="" (logopolis).="" a="" and="" appeared="" around="" between="" bridge="" concept="" dark="" distillation="" doctor="" doctor's="" doctor,="" ethereal="" evil="" exist="" fact,="" fifth="" final="" foe,="" fourth="" gap="" himself="" his="" however,="" in="" incarnation.="" incarnations="" infiltrate="" is="" it="" it.="" itself="" manifested="" master="" matrix,="" might="" novelisation="" of="" or="" penultimate="" possible="" potential="" rather,="" regeneration".unquote="" reincarnation...="" revealed="" revealing="" side,="" similar="" somewhere="" states="" story="" that="" the="" then="" thirteenth="" this="" to="" twelfth="" ultimate="" valeyard="" valeyard,="" version="" was="" was,="" who="" wikipedia="" your="" —="" “in="">

So the Valyard would still have to come, but then again, who can trust anything the Master says? But we also know the 11th regen. is imminent, creating the 12th persona; it could have been a counting mistake of the Master and the regen. of the 11th will set the Valeyard free.

The title of the ep. Is The name of the Doctor. That does not mean
the birth name of the Gallifreyan boy, but the title he chose when he started roaming (like his boyhood friend chose the name Master. Note: Doctor is Healer and Master is Powermonger, so names well chosen). He makes that very clear when he says ‘it’s me, but it’s not the Doctor’. I am not sure if he is an aged 8 or a double 9, but it makes sense to think he’s no regen. but a manifestation. Esp. as no. 8 was called the Doctor. Ppl refer to seeing all the previous regens with Clara, but those are instances where she ‘interferes’ somehow, whereas JH appears inside the time stream and the tomb, so he def. is something else – Clara does not know him either!

Now it is important to think about the fact that this one is entombed, and in a tomb that is his Tardis as well. So who entombed him (and/or killed him) and where did no. 9 find a new Tardis? Could it be that both the
Doctor and the Tardis split in two because of the Time War? And what does ‘the fall of the 11th’ really mean? Just the fact he went back in his own time stream? And is the manifestation really from before no. 9? All through 9-10-11 the Doctor has been struggling with grief, anger, doubt etc., so it was not fully loaded onto this figure to cleanse him of it. So maybe he has been feeding this figure all this time since 9 and it has now become so manifest it was the real cause of time and space damage. One has to wonder why 11’s Tardis looks so different and after so many
years he could not land it properly at the pond – he actually ‘fell’. And at
that moment the first crack in time was seen and analysed.

It was also never explained why he was off 12 years with Amelia/Amy – very unusual for the Doctor. Those years must be significant. So maybe in this time he was already setting up The Silence, the birth of River, the duplicate doctor at the lake, the Pandorica situation and the explosion of the Tardis. The expanded Tardis at Trenzalore might just be 10’s Tardis and the ‘new one’ like a clone or split, one that does not like Clara as it is also a darker Tardis, which allows for a dream Lord to interfere and for zombies to appear.

BTW 10 and 11 will work together on the 50th show and it makes me wonder if 10’s regen. into the hand (the not-finished regen.) helped make the dark creation manifest. So before 11 went to Amelia’s house he was in Trenzalore, left the Tardis as a tomb for this manifestation of himself, incl, the hand (it’s not in the present Tardis anymore right?). And did I read correctly 10’s Tardis will be used in the 50th?

Why I think the Doctor created The Silence order is because ultimately they tried to stop the GI entering the time stream, undoing all that the Doctor has done. It would be in his own interest to stop that from happening. He must have had a hand in setting up River and Amy to help him with that. The GI might even be connected to the dark manifestation and the cause of all the other events, like setting up the death or imprisonment of the Doctor. But maybe The Silence are also created by the Dark Lord and has our Doctor always been the one to try and
fight it on his own since 10 and 11. I do think River, Amy and Clara are not ‘normal’ people, like previous companions. They seem to be created esp. for their roles and never have companions been so endangered, me thinks.

Note; <quote "hand="" "infinite="" (despite="" 1963,="" 1988="" a="" afterward.”="" altered="" an="" and="" and,="" anipulatorinvented="" another="" antimatter="" apparent="" apparently="" as="" attempt="" be="" before="" black="" but="" by="" capacity="" casket="" coffin.="" collapsed="" colleague="" consumed="" create="" creator,="" dalek="" daleks="" daleks.="" davros="" davros.="" device="" doctor="" dubbed="" engineer="" enhancing="" episode.="" events="" exile="" experiments="" explains="" eye="" first="" for="" from="" funeral="" gallifrey="" gallifrey.="" gallifreyans'="" giving="" had="" hand="" hand's="" hand).="" harmony,="" harnessed="" he="" hid="" hiding="" him="" his="" hole,="" homage="" homeworld="" hoped="" however,="" in="" instead="" into="" is="" it="" laying="" like="" live="" london="" looking="" lords="" made="" manipulator="" mastery="" move="" mythical="" name="" name.="" nothing="" nucleus="" obliterating="" of="" omega="" omega"="" omega's="" omega,="" over="" parlour="" place.="" planet="" power="" presumably,="" pretentiousness",="" prior="" programming="" rassilon="" remembrance="" remembrance,="" remote="" removed="" resemble="" resided="" resulted="" returned="" seen="" self-imposed="" serial="" seventh="" shunted="" skaro="" skaro's="" so="" source="" stellar="" subsequent="" subsequently="" sun="" sun,="" supernova="" supernova,="" that="" the="" their="" themselves.="" then="" time="" to="" transform="" trap="" travel.="" truth,="" turned="" universe.="" unquote="" up="" use="" used="" was="" which="" who="" wikipedia="" would="" “in="">

How much narrative coincidence is the use of the Doctor’s real hand to create a minor self (clone) and absorb a premature regen.? And if the Hand of O. has the power to transform a star to enhance or kill it,
how much coincidence is exploding the Tardis and making it into an artificial sun to save the Earth, as well as be a vehicle to reset the
Universe? There must be links to these classic facts, seeing Moffat being a
die-hard fan himself.

There is so much we can mull over and it is proof of the richness of the phantasy and the wonderful writing of RTD and Moffat, even if we do not always agree with Moffat’s solutions and he does overcomplicate things sometimes. Can’t wait for the 50th to hit the screens!</quote></quote>

so sorry, the quotes became a mess and I cannot undo it anymore.

add to that the fact the interior of the tomb is the current control room and there are no doctors after matt smith in the timeline, is the doctors final battle nearer than believed?

the really horrific idea behind that is if the silence indeed own that TARDIS thing (implied more than one exists), they are stated as being parasites who build nothing themselves and stand over the shoulder of other races for their whole history, implied to exist across the universe, if they had a TARDIS ship built, who built it for them?

could they even have influenced the timelords without anyone knowing?

the silence want to prevent the doctor's name being revealled (as seen this opens the tomb to reveal his secret shameful version believed to be related to the time war) what is it about the rejected john hurt doctor the silence want to keep secret? are they ensuring no one can enter the tomb to either use him to their own ends, or erase him as the intelligence tried, causing reality to collapse, essentially making everything the silence do making them in some warped ways the guardians and saviours of reality? this of course may tie the silence to the time war in some way to recognise the importance of the john hurt doctor, the may be victims of the war like the gelth, having caused their unusual powers and appearance. the fact they can remember parallel timelines where rory dies implies a higher temporal intelligence. throw in the strange time machines and the alliance they form in a good man goes to war worshipping omega symbols, they could even be the horrific warped remains of timelords not killed in the war but altered like the gelth.

is that not a bit more horrific for a silence origin story?

She says in the Name of the Doctor (I think it was then, might have been some time else) that it took a while, but she made him tell her. Exact circumstances are not known, and when they met in the Library, Tennant says there was only one time he could ever tell her, but I believe that the Doctor told River his name simply so that when they met in the Library, she could tell him his name, and get him to trust her. Plain and simple, no other reason.

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