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Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
John Moore
As The Incredible Hulk heads to cinema screens this month, John says that the ultimate Hulk movie has already been made...
Published on Jun 2, 2008
Why is this not in the ‘guilty pleasures’ article that we ran recently? Well, I have NOTHING to feel guilty about. I don’t even want anyone to shoot me. It’s everyone else (it seems) that should hang his or her head in shame.
This is an open letter to all the people I’ve disagreed with over the past five years on this subject, and here’s the point: you don’t deserve Hulk, you philistines. You hypocrites. You get what you fraking deserve… And that’s Transformers 2. Enjoy it… I hope your brains bleed out of your left ear, slowly and painfully… Before you die - alone, with an owl.
Have you ever seen the Twilight Zone episode with Burgess Meredith (Time Enough At Last)? The one where he’s Henry Beamis, the antisocial bank worker who locks himself in a vault so he can read in peace, only to emerge and discover there’s been an apocalypse, and that he’s the only person left, but he’s happy about it ‘cause now he has time to read all the books he’s been ridiculed for loving all his life?
Well, I know how he feels every time I hear some geek moan and groan about why ‘there are no intelligent Superhero movies’ and how ‘studios always dumb them down…’ Why? Well, although they’re right, I know that in virtually the next breath they’ll take the piss out of me for loving Ang Lee’s take on the Big Green Guy. Just leave me alone, with a big screen and a DVD of this movie, I’ll be fine. Feck off.
In fact, do you know what? I don’t even need the big screen. Even if my glasses break – the fate that befell poor old Henry in that show’s dénouement, just before Rod Serling really stuck his know-it-all boot in – I can still listen to the dialogue: ‘cause, y’know, it has some that’s worth listening to.
Do you remember when people talked in movies – even action movies - and what they said actually meant something? When it wasn’t just half-arsed exposition allowing the director to get to the next set-piece as quickly as possible, when characters were built, explained slowly and had motivations both implicit and explicit? When movies didn’t always feel the need for comedic interludes to ‘cheer things up’? When people’s actions had consequences – when heroes and villains came from somewhere and weren’t just chosen by a Gilliam-esque hand from the Gods for no apparent reason.
Comics, my friends, are not cartoons (as you well know)… So why do we accept movies that treat them as such? Comics, my friends, go to great lengths to explain the back-story of their central characters, so why does nobody appreciate it when a film does the same? Here is a script that loves its central character enough to spend time with him, and – let it be stated, right here - Bruce Banner’s that central character. Hulk doesn’t treat him as an inconvenient ‘norm’ that gets in the way of Hulk doing cool shit; it’s the other way around…don’t you see?
The Hulk is the monster in the closet, the demon under the bed, Freddie-fricking-Kruger haunting Banner’s dreams and stunting his life. The unmentionable truth, the Primal Scream. Ang Lee’s Hulk is not a superhero movie; the titular character is a monster that Banner must control. He’s not there just to bend stuff, throw tanks, call us puny and work as a do-good shill. If you want catchphrases sod off and watch The ‘Fantastic’ Four. What’s more, Ang Lee’s Hulk is not a superhero movie, it’s a family drama… It’s fecking Jane Eyre – but the madwoman in the attic of this emotionally stunted Mr. Rochester is a Gamma irradiated mutant. I love that movie, I love this movie… Orson Wells would’ve loved Hulk.
Here is a movie that grows, evolves, oozes, slips and slides across rocks pulls itself out of the water, evolves some more and then accelerates wonderfully. After that it drags itself onto its hind legs in time to kick virtually every other comic book movie that came before it in the teeth for being immature, just because it can.
It uses colour and visual metaphor to foreshadow events and illuminate the story. It builds a tension and claustrophobia in its editing, and a wonderful pace develops in the cascading scenes and the way they’re inter-cut using panelling. Hulk never loses its nerve, it bubbles and burbles as the pressure grows; until the inevitable explosion, until the doors are kicked open and the house burns down. It, quite frankly, is a master class. A master class of direction, of cinematography, and of acting – one that takes a wonderful ten minute interlude halfway through to become an off-Broadway kitchen sink act-off between Bana and Nolte. In this moment, it lives, and breathes… It cares. Yet all I ever hear is; “it was ages before we saw the Hulk, and then he looked a bit rubbish”.
WRONG! You fecking feckers…
I remember being thrilled by a plasticine gorilla climbing a model of the Empire State Building, by Harryhausen’s skeletons emerging from the ground, by Christopher Reeve lying on a table whilst a helicopter shot of New York was projected behind him. I don’t need photo-realism; pushing pretty pixels is the last refuge of the cinematic scoundrel - stand up George Lucas stand up Michael Bay… Yes, I’m talking to you. When the best thing I can find to say about a movie is ‘I love those lighting/dust/laser/explosion/camera movement effects’ then I know I just wasted two hours of my life. To me, Hulk’s effects are transparent - they’re not a feature, they are a tool for the drama: no more, or less than they should be.
When I look into the Hulk’s face, I see the pain, I see the struggle, the confusion, I see all I need to see. I see Eric Bana, Bruce Banner, behind its eyes; save for Gollum, I consider him to be perhaps the finest digital actor so far. So, he looks a bit ‘drawn’, there are a few problems with the skin, the clothes. It doesn’t matter. It’s in the eyes, and everything you need is right there. If you cannot suspend your disbelief beyond a critique of the visual effects, why the hell are you watching a movie like this at all? Grow up.
None of this matters though: the box office tells me I’m wrong, the studios tell me I’m wrong, the internet tells me I’m wrong, my friends tell me I’m wrong and complete strangers walk up to me in the street and punch me in the face – or simply cross the road in disgust. I’m a geek leper. Come this summer though, they’ll all get what they want in the form of a sequel: Hulk Lite, as I like to call it. Of course it’s The Incredible Hulk to all the right-thinking people of the world, delivered directly to their 10-second-attention-span eyeballs by the director who thrilled ‘em with Danny The Dog, The Transporter and The Transporter 2. Now, I enjoyed those last two movies, but putting them up against the cinematic ‘form’ of Ang Lee is like comparing Big Macs to Beef Wellington.
What he’ll deliver is Ed Norton – an undeniably talented actor, but with an eerily suspect taste in roles lately – Liv Tyler (Jennifer Connolly Lite), workaday Will Hurt (in place of the wonderful Sam Elliot) and Tim Roth (as the ‘anti-Hulk’) in an all-singing, all dancing, all smashing Hulktastic extravaganza - as vacuous and predictable as the others that inevitably follow. What’s more, you’re getting the added franchise-ability of a guest appearance by Tony Stark/Iron Man thrown in: whoopee-fecking-do.
So, you’ve already had your Matrix-esque trailer, now you’ll get your superhero movie, you’ll get the Hulk movie they ‘shoulda’ made, and I can guarantee that that’s how it’ll be sold to the cattle. In less than two weeks, you’ll get more of what you deserve, lucky you.
This is an open letter to all the people I’ve disagreed with over the past five years on this subject, and here’s the point: you don’t deserve Hulk, you philistines. You hypocrites. You get what you fraking deserve… And that’s Transformers 2. Enjoy it… I hope your brains bleed out of your left ear, slowly and painfully… Before you die - alone, with an owl.
Have you ever seen the Twilight Zone episode with Burgess Meredith (Time Enough At Last)? The one where he’s Henry Beamis, the antisocial bank worker who locks himself in a vault so he can read in peace, only to emerge and discover there’s been an apocalypse, and that he’s the only person left, but he’s happy about it ‘cause now he has time to read all the books he’s been ridiculed for loving all his life?
Well, I know how he feels every time I hear some geek moan and groan about why ‘there are no intelligent Superhero movies’ and how ‘studios always dumb them down…’ Why? Well, although they’re right, I know that in virtually the next breath they’ll take the piss out of me for loving Ang Lee’s take on the Big Green Guy. Just leave me alone, with a big screen and a DVD of this movie, I’ll be fine. Feck off.
In fact, do you know what? I don’t even need the big screen. Even if my glasses break – the fate that befell poor old Henry in that show’s dénouement, just before Rod Serling really stuck his know-it-all boot in – I can still listen to the dialogue: ‘cause, y’know, it has some that’s worth listening to.
Do you remember when people talked in movies – even action movies - and what they said actually meant something? When it wasn’t just half-arsed exposition allowing the director to get to the next set-piece as quickly as possible, when characters were built, explained slowly and had motivations both implicit and explicit? When movies didn’t always feel the need for comedic interludes to ‘cheer things up’? When people’s actions had consequences – when heroes and villains came from somewhere and weren’t just chosen by a Gilliam-esque hand from the Gods for no apparent reason.
Comics, my friends, are not cartoons (as you well know)… So why do we accept movies that treat them as such? Comics, my friends, go to great lengths to explain the back-story of their central characters, so why does nobody appreciate it when a film does the same? Here is a script that loves its central character enough to spend time with him, and – let it be stated, right here - Bruce Banner’s that central character. Hulk doesn’t treat him as an inconvenient ‘norm’ that gets in the way of Hulk doing cool shit; it’s the other way around…don’t you see?
The Hulk is the monster in the closet, the demon under the bed, Freddie-fricking-Kruger haunting Banner’s dreams and stunting his life. The unmentionable truth, the Primal Scream. Ang Lee’s Hulk is not a superhero movie; the titular character is a monster that Banner must control. He’s not there just to bend stuff, throw tanks, call us puny and work as a do-good shill. If you want catchphrases sod off and watch The ‘Fantastic’ Four. What’s more, Ang Lee’s Hulk is not a superhero movie, it’s a family drama… It’s fecking Jane Eyre – but the madwoman in the attic of this emotionally stunted Mr. Rochester is a Gamma irradiated mutant. I love that movie, I love this movie… Orson Wells would’ve loved Hulk.
Here is a movie that grows, evolves, oozes, slips and slides across rocks pulls itself out of the water, evolves some more and then accelerates wonderfully. After that it drags itself onto its hind legs in time to kick virtually every other comic book movie that came before it in the teeth for being immature, just because it can.
It uses colour and visual metaphor to foreshadow events and illuminate the story. It builds a tension and claustrophobia in its editing, and a wonderful pace develops in the cascading scenes and the way they’re inter-cut using panelling. Hulk never loses its nerve, it bubbles and burbles as the pressure grows; until the inevitable explosion, until the doors are kicked open and the house burns down. It, quite frankly, is a master class. A master class of direction, of cinematography, and of acting – one that takes a wonderful ten minute interlude halfway through to become an off-Broadway kitchen sink act-off between Bana and Nolte. In this moment, it lives, and breathes… It cares. Yet all I ever hear is; “it was ages before we saw the Hulk, and then he looked a bit rubbish”.
WRONG! You fecking feckers…
I remember being thrilled by a plasticine gorilla climbing a model of the Empire State Building, by Harryhausen’s skeletons emerging from the ground, by Christopher Reeve lying on a table whilst a helicopter shot of New York was projected behind him. I don’t need photo-realism; pushing pretty pixels is the last refuge of the cinematic scoundrel - stand up George Lucas stand up Michael Bay… Yes, I’m talking to you. When the best thing I can find to say about a movie is ‘I love those lighting/dust/laser/explosion/camera movement effects’ then I know I just wasted two hours of my life. To me, Hulk’s effects are transparent - they’re not a feature, they are a tool for the drama: no more, or less than they should be.
When I look into the Hulk’s face, I see the pain, I see the struggle, the confusion, I see all I need to see. I see Eric Bana, Bruce Banner, behind its eyes; save for Gollum, I consider him to be perhaps the finest digital actor so far. So, he looks a bit ‘drawn’, there are a few problems with the skin, the clothes. It doesn’t matter. It’s in the eyes, and everything you need is right there. If you cannot suspend your disbelief beyond a critique of the visual effects, why the hell are you watching a movie like this at all? Grow up.
None of this matters though: the box office tells me I’m wrong, the studios tell me I’m wrong, the internet tells me I’m wrong, my friends tell me I’m wrong and complete strangers walk up to me in the street and punch me in the face – or simply cross the road in disgust. I’m a geek leper. Come this summer though, they’ll all get what they want in the form of a sequel: Hulk Lite, as I like to call it. Of course it’s The Incredible Hulk to all the right-thinking people of the world, delivered directly to their 10-second-attention-span eyeballs by the director who thrilled ‘em with Danny The Dog, The Transporter and The Transporter 2. Now, I enjoyed those last two movies, but putting them up against the cinematic ‘form’ of Ang Lee is like comparing Big Macs to Beef Wellington.
What he’ll deliver is Ed Norton – an undeniably talented actor, but with an eerily suspect taste in roles lately – Liv Tyler (Jennifer Connolly Lite), workaday Will Hurt (in place of the wonderful Sam Elliot) and Tim Roth (as the ‘anti-Hulk’) in an all-singing, all dancing, all smashing Hulktastic extravaganza - as vacuous and predictable as the others that inevitably follow. What’s more, you’re getting the added franchise-ability of a guest appearance by Tony Stark/Iron Man thrown in: whoopee-fecking-do.
So, you’ve already had your Matrix-esque trailer, now you’ll get your superhero movie, you’ll get the Hulk movie they ‘shoulda’ made, and I can guarantee that that’s how it’ll be sold to the cattle. In less than two weeks, you’ll get more of what you deserve, lucky you.
Users Comments
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By Midnighter 1 June 2, 2008 09:50:26 AM
While I look forward to the new film, I have to agree and say the Ang Lee film is a great film. I guess too many people expecting 2 hours of "Hulk Smash", but the comic (or even TV series) was never about that. It was about a man and his struggle, and every now and then he'd lose control and we'd get some action. Ang Lee got it spot on in my eyes and created an intelligent Man-as-Monster film.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By Robmac 1 June 2, 2008 09:50:55 AM
good comments -- but wrong!. Hulk is indeed a good film, but just not a good superhero movie and definatly not a good summer blockbuster film. The notion of a deep thoughtful superhero flick is all well and good and could have been made from 101 other less known characters such as Concrete, Strangers in Paradise even the Sandman even but the Hulk is one of Marvels premire big iconic heroes, a huge mountain of power and the biggest, most physiclaly powerful hero in the entire Marvel Universe. When people think of the Hulk they think of him smashing the Leader, The Abomination, and if you have read World War Hulk nearly the entire MArvel universe. He is a engine of destruction and should be seen atop destroyed tanks and planes, protecting Betty Ross from her father, Glen Talbot and other gamma spawned bad-guy. This is what we were sold when we were told there was a Hulk film going on, and this is what Marvel also sold to the general public with there Hulk hands, action figures and merch. I understand that the Hulk is a deep and fractured character and Peter David over his run really went into the mind-fook that was Bruce Banner, however this does not translate on film - for this they needed the Hulk Smash, the over the top action and the insane destruction, this is what we all expected and this is what Avi Arad and co sold to the public and this is why the film is bad, not because the film itself is bad ( it is very good in parts) it was just mis-sold and a very very wrongly pitch for the character that kids and fans should have loved and concentrated in showing us this in the first film and then introducing us to the deeper, darker aspects of the character in later films - unpeeling the psyche like an onion in between bouts of explosive action.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By TVDust1 1 June 2, 2008 10:00:45 AM
Write your comment here...
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By TVDust1 1 June 2, 2008 10:06:55 AM
Rob, concentrate on the film... Not the marketing. I don't think 90% of people think about this deeply at all, they just want a billboard for a movie rather than a novel. What annoys me is the fact that on one hand people moan about such films being childish and for kids, and yet when someone delivers a grown up movie to them, they moan about that too.
As I said in the article, Ang Lee's movie is not a Superhero movie, it's a drama with a superhero in it. Yet there was plenty of destruction in that film, certainly enough action: it seems that some people don't like to be made to think. In which case I don't want to listen to them moan, and I certainly don't want to have to listen to them critique this movie to me. Which I have to on a regular basis.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By Robmac 1 June 2, 2008 11:00:07 AM
agreed - however there is no point making a drama with a superhero that is so iconic as the hulk and then flogging it as if it were a summer blockbuster - it defies the point and as both the audience and critics showed turns off the audience. The concept of superheroes are modern day myths and legends is used a lot and for that they do indeed need to have a certain amount of drama, pathos and depth of character which the Hulk film has, just not in the right amounts to make a viable superhero film. Added to this the dyanamic between father and son is used a lot in storytelling and I can see where Ang Lee comes from when structuring the films narrative - however first and foremost he should have thought about what was on the screen and how it would translate for this medium. Nobody wants to see David and Bruce Banner nattering away about their issues in the finale of the film and added to this the messy CG ending, lack of Hulk in the first third and reliance of cut flashbacks to childhood isnt what people wanted to see in this type of movie. The tone and feel of the film was wrong. It was, if you will excuse the generalisation a 'art-house' film and while I like films of every nature having a summer blockbuster evebt film such as this directed by a renound and respected director of these type of films ( again apologies for plonking all intelligent film-makers are arty) it was wrong for what was required. I can see why Marvel wanted to go with Lee, rather than a MCG or Stephen Norrington or Ratner but for this type of demographic of audience for this type of movie it was just wrong as could be seen by the rows upon rows of children, teens and eager fanboys sitting there waiting for the Hulk to make an appearance and being dissapointed when his only opponent when he did appear was mutated dogs, a few un-manned tanks and a messy blob of CG. This was was not what people who loved the character wanted to see and whether it is a good film or not Marvel really did not give what the audience wanted which really is, when it comes down to it what the majority of mainstream movie making is all about. As a mates of mines son said when he took him to the cinema to see it 'This Hulk films rubbish...the Hulks not in it' - While I agree in part with a seven year old opinion it is a good film, just not a good Hulk film.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By TVDust1 1 June 2, 2008 11:47:55 AM
I know where you're coming from, and I'll lay a tenner saying you'll get exactly what you want from the new movie. Like I said, 'lucky you'. I however, do not feel the need to get frothy around the groin over the new trailer - and its use of the 70s music - like Ain't It Cool is this morning. As a person with a - compared to your good self - only a passing appreciation of the Hulk's lore, this movie and Batman Begins are the only 'origins' movies I've had any emotional involvement in. I thought they were both a great blend of action and storytelling; interestingly both delayed the arrival of the iconic figure to great effect.
Errors made by Marvel in direction and marketing of Hulk do not make this a bad film, or make Ang Lee's choices and decisions wrong either... It calls Marvel in question. Not this movie. I'm just fed up with hearing 'Hulk's shit', when by all discernible scales I've ever used in my life, it blatantly isn't. It's a wonderfully constructed movie, and doesn't deserve anything like the kicking it gets.
Finally, I didn't really cover the ending in the article, but as it has come up in comments I will.
I think the Oedipal stuff at the end is brilliant. The son killing the father to possess the mother (Betty being Bruce's mother replacement as well as a simple love interest - watch the hug in San Francisco, she strokes his hair ferchrissakes).
You've gotta love the ying/yang thing and 'TAKE IT ALL'... Banner unleashing the untapped well of loss, aggression and power borne of the fear his father created in order to overwhelm what his father has become, for the first time in his life just letting it all hang out there. For a moment, there's nNo more fear, no more repression; 'here you go dad, so you think I'm beautiful? You think this is the real me? Look at what you've created, watch it destroy you and then tell me it's beautiful you son of a bitch.'
Not surprisingly, the subtext of escaping from the boxes your parents put you in appears to have been lost on the movie 'lovers' who want to see Atari's Rampage turned into a movie.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By Matt 1 June 2, 2008 11:49:50 AM
To quote the 41st Best Stand-Up Comedian Ever, Stewart Lee; "Don't make me Ang Lee, you wouldn't like me when I'm Ang Lee"
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By zoidberg 1 June 2, 2008 04:12:53 PM
Just like you it makes me sick to always hear friends tell me how much they hated this movie because "nothing happened". How much more simple minded can we possibly get? I think people just want to see stuff break and get thrown around for 2 hours, without any plot or character development.
THe same goes for criticisms of Batman Begins. I loved that movie and would take it over any of the Spiderman movies. Yet all i hear from many people i know is how "boring" the movie was. Seriously these people should just go back to watching wrestling or whatever they do in their free time. It's because of people like them that people like jet li and jason statham make so many movies and get away with it.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By simonbrew 1 June 2, 2008 08:09:26 PM
John Moore, I stand side by side with you. Ang Lee's Hulk is a work of sheer brilliance. You are not alone, sir. Not at all.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By twosheds 1 June 2, 2008 09:12:57 PM
It sucked without the mournful piano music.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By adfrancis 1 June 2, 2008 10:17:15 PM
I saw the original 3 times in theaters. It was a masterpiece (at least that's what I thought). I have watched, cringing, the trailers for the new movie. It looks like such a pile of shit! Ang Lee told a story about people who live in a world where there might be a hulk. The new movie looks like a scenario I would have acted out as an 8 year old with action figures. Same level of dialog. Same depth of character. Same amount of time devoted to the actual story. It's like porno for pimple faced idiots: the thinnest excuse for a plot to hang an orgy of bad CGI monster fights on. Why not just save money on actors, crew, etc. and simply produce a high end computer game?
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By themike314 1 June 2, 2008 11:13:50 PM
I, too, loved Hulk. In my opinion, it is one of the top 5 comic book/superhero movies.
I am often criticised by my friends and family for liking this movie, but I can't help it. They're unable to understand a plot with character development. They can have their smash-up fests with pretty CGI and giant explosions. I'll settle for a good story.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By picknmix 1 June 3, 2008 08:30:32 AM
I have mixed feelings about the Ang Lee Hulk. On one level I like his slow burn narrative and careful progression, but on the other it's like the parts with the Hulk are actually from an entirely different movie. The more the Hulk actually appears the more disjointed it becomes, as such the last 20 minutes are a complete mess and not at all representative of the rest. I think Ang's vision is interesting , but flawed, and possibly not what people expected. It's good that he confronted expectation, but I don't think it entirely came off. From what I've seen the new movie isn't as daring, but it might hit a stronger cord with a viewing audience that isn't so discerning.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By TVDust1 1 June 3, 2008 11:07:50 AM
It's great to know that you're not alone... Myself and Mr. Brew have often felt like a little island of sanity in a mad world :-)
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By TVDust1 1 June 3, 2008 11:08:19 AM
It's great to know that you're not alone... Myself and Mr. Brew have often felt like a little island of sanity in a mad world :-)
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By akhilprem 1 June 6, 2008 04:07:47 PM
I love Ang Lee's Hulk. Some scenes are just orgasmic and get more so with every watch. Its not the thrill ride or the slick fantasy that we're delivered in Spider-Man or Batman Begins. I think Ang Lee dignified the fantasy, but beyond lowbrow perception. I think 'Hulk' is the Bladerunner of comic book movies, without the bug break of course. My only regret after watching this is that more of the same will not be made.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By myozalots 1 June 7, 2008 06:16:25 PM
I’m not a Hulk fan, but I’m a comic reader. I like the movie a lot. I have the 3-disk DVD pack.
I agree with “Hulk is not a superhero movie” as Hulk was not a superhero.
What I don’t like…
The CGI. Specifically the Hulk animation done by Ang Lee himself.
Don’t get me wrong. I loved Gollum (Lord of the Rings). But Gollum had Andy Serkis to make him alive. Make animation look “real” at least credible it’s not an easy job.
All the CGI work to create a “real” character with expressions and muscles were lost when the small Ang Lee did the movements to the giant Hulk.
Ang Lee is a superb director, no doubt. But he’s not and actor, and most of all not a “mimic” if I can use this word. Hulk action should have a giant to play them. And a giant actor who knows impersonate.
As Shuler Hensley did in Van Helsing: he was the Frankenstein's Monster, but also, and that’s my point, Mr. Hyde body movements with Robbie Coltrane voice. I’m not talking about Van Helsing’s movie. I’m saying the giant (Mr. Hyde) movement was believable (as it could be).
Ang Lee’s angry moment as Hulk going out the lab scene was pure caricature.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By phatso86 1 June 9, 2008 07:20:52 PM
did anyone else notice how well "Passion of the Christ" did ?
shouldnt that be a clue to what it is the simple minded masses are into?
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By simonbrew 1 June 12, 2008 11:06:53 AM
This thread has, primarily, brought tears of joy to my eyes. Are you reading this, Mr Lee? Care to make another one?
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By JacX1 1 June 13, 2008 09:00:34 AM
Thank You! Finally someone agrees with me. I thought the whole world had gone crazy and I was the only sane person left. You are a brilliant writter and put it in such a way that.. just couldn't have been said better. The last Hulk movie in my opinion was a masterpiece. I loved it so much I bought the DVD and watched it for a week. I loved the diologe (if you don't like diologe in a movie then you shouldn't watch them at all) It painted you a whole picture and made you understand it much more while still leaving some stuff to the imagination. I loved the camera angles... though a bit risky, it made the movie seem more like a living comic book, I loved the villain, which was played beautifully by Nick Nolte... pretty much the whole cast was good, Eric bana was dead on with staying on character as the hulk, General ross was masterfully done by Sam Elliot (He looked just like him!) and Jennifer Connelly! oh my god she was Betty ross. The whole movie was great, there was no reason to re-cast everyone, no reason to re-due the movie, no reason to pretend like the other one never happend, I just don't know what the the general audience wanted. I just wish more people understood the last hulk movie.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By miladyblue 1 June 13, 2008 10:29:23 AM
Amen, John!
While I admit to being a big budget, summer blockbuster loving geek - I gotta see SOMETHING blow up or be spectacularly destroyed! - what I love EVEN more is to have an intelligent, articulate storyline that builds the tension and suspense, and makes the explosion/spectacular destruction logical, and thus, even more spectacular and welcome.
ACTUAL character development - Bruce was a genuinely nice guy, but he had a deep dark secret he didn't understand that affected his ENTIRE life. The complicated setup was ABSOLUTELY necessary to show WHY it was possible, under the right circumstances and pressure he would go into "Hulk Smash!" mode. Eric Bana was BRILLIANT. I was also in rhapsodies over the rest of the excellent cast.
I don't give a shit what anyone else thinks. I LIKE this movie, I WATCH this movie on DVD every so often, and NO ONE is going to change my mind about it.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By andromeda 1 June 20, 2008 04:00:22 AM
I would like to try and explain that there is a reason why "simple minded" people like me hated Ang's Lee movie with "Hulk" in it.
First at all. I love artistic movies that deal with the human drama. I loved Sense and Sensibility and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon ( I’m really into Spain and Mexican indepent film this days actually) so contrary with what all of you think I'm not stupid or simple minded, but in the same vein that when you go to a cafeteria asking for Coke and they deliver you Pepsi telling you that is Coke, insisting that is Coke, even after you taste it and making you drinking it for as much time as they want to still telling you that is not only Coke but that you should loved because is the best Coke ever. Wouldn't you feel cheated? Mistreated? At least irritated?
That is what happens with Ang Lee’s version it might be a good movie even a great one but Ang was asked for a Hulk movie and we were told it was a Hulk movie and we expected a Hulk movie and instead he created a female character with father issues and called her Betty Ross, created a male character with father issues and called him Bruce Banner and then to make us think we were watching a Hulk movie, he added the CGI and comic book panels.
So all in all Ang though that after spending over 40 years knowing and loving the Hulk we couldn't recognize a Hulk movie just out of CGI and some panels.
That is what pisses us so much. We are not stupid. If they would had told us on advance what we were getting into we would had received it much better, probably even liked it. But Ang took the father issues that both character has and deal with them in way the characters don't deal with it. Bruce's tragedy is not the father issue per se neither he is emotionally closed, he is a shy scientist that had managed to get a normal life that he loves with Betty and then the experiments take it all a way and that is why he hates the Hulk. His tragedy is that he lost it all: his love, his career, and his freedom all because of the monster inside of him. He is lost in this world with no one to turn to and in search for a cure while managing to handle his human anger so he doesn’t hurt anyone else, he doesn’t enjoy Hulk he is not a liberation he doesn’t want it out ever. He is prisoner of himself and he wants to be free. I mean wasn't that deep enough for Mr. Lee had worked with and made a brilliant script of a real Hulk movie instead of selling us his father issues with The Hulk?
Dumbing down a superhero movie becuse you understimate your audience is on the same line that changing it completely expecting the audience not noticing because you are also understimate them as well, even if is like you said brilliant.
Comic books heroes had not been around for so many years because they have stupid mindless explosions with guys on thigh clothing delivering cliché lines. They had been around because in the mix of all that there is drama, comedy, romance, action and a human drama that strikes a cord with many of us in many levels. Is hard to equilibrate all that into a movie but we appreciate when someone at least tries to achieve that even if is a so so director instead of just ignore it and go for whatever they want to tell at the time.
So next time any of you feel like accusing us of single minded stupid crowds remember we love superheroes because at least they are superhero movies some are good some are bad but if every one involved tried to pay respect to the material we can forgive many things.
Mr, Lee didn’t do that and that is what made his movie hated and this hate will grow up now in the light of the new movie because everyone will be wide awake of what he tried to do.
The Incredible Hulk may not be award winning material but is heart winning material. I know that counts little for some “artists” but is not a stupid thing to ask, at least is not for me.
We know when we want to deal with the complexities of the human nature sitting on a coffee shop trying to reach to that wall that our father is and when we want to deal with them with a big green giant turning a car into boxing gloves. Is stupid to be able to choose to want to choose?
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By Roboshawn 1 October 26, 2008 10:33:53 AM
The father issues were a part of the Bill Mantlo/Peter David runs. Bruce even had his own superpowered therapist. In the comics, Bruce's father was jealous of the love his wife had for her son and took it out on Bruce.
I'm a Hulk fan and Ang Lee deliverted a HULK film!
There were the psychological aspects, just like in the comic.
He was hounded by the military, as he was in the comics.
Betty was the bridge and the anchor, trying to find balance between these two men in her life (Bruce and her father).... just like in the comics.
Hulk goes on a frightning rampage, just like in the comics!
Ang added some odd, surreal imagry that I found interesting. He made a beautiful, thought provoking film. The script is filled with powerful moments (Bruce admitting that he 'liked it" when he lost control. Nolte's speach about the sudden finality of his wifes death)
I love Lee's Hulk. and I've had to suffer through insults left and right because of it. It's very nice to know I'm not alone in my appreciation for this movie.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By azo0oz 1 May 10, 2009 02:52:56 AM
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Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By azo0oz 1 May 10, 2009 02:53:35 AM
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Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By SiyahLim 1 May 11, 2009 12:29:39 AM
I would like to try and explain that there is a reason why "simple minded" people like me hated Ang's Lee movie with "Hulk" in it. First at all. I love artistic movies that deal with the human drama. I loved Sense and Sensibility and Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon ( I’m really into Spain and Mexican indepent film this days actually) so contrary with what all of you think I'm not stupid or simple minded, but in the same vein that when you go to a cafeteria asking for Coke and they deliver you Pepsi telling you that is Coke, insisting that is Coke, even after you taste it and making you drinking it for as much time as they want to still telling you that is not only Coke but that you should loved because is the best Coke ever. Wouldn't you feel cheated? Mistreated? At least irritated? That is what happens with Ang Lee’s version it might be a good movie even a great one but Ang was asked for a Hulk movie and we were told it was a Hulk movie and we expected a Hulk movie and instead he created a female character with father issues and called her Betty Ross, created a male character with father issues and called him Bruce Banner and then to make us think we were watching a Hulk movie, he added the CGI and comic book panels. So all in all Ang though that after spending over 40 years knowing and loving the Hulk we couldn't recognize a Hulk movie just out of CGI and some panels. That is what pisses us so much. We are not stupid. If they would had told us on advance what we were getting into we would had received it much better, probably even liked it. But Ang took the father issues that both character has and deal with them in way the characters don't deal with it. Bruce's tragedy is not the father issue per se neither he is emotionally closed, he is a shy scientist that had managed to get a normal life that he loves with Betty and then the experiments take it all a way and that is why he hates the Hulk. His tragedy is that he lost it all: his love, his career, and his freedom all because of the monster inside of him. He is lost in this world with no one to turn to and in search for a cure while managing to handle his human anger so he doesn’t hurt anyone else, he doesn’t enjoy Hulk he is not a liberation he doesn’t want it out ever. He is prisoner of himself and he wants to be free. I mean wasn't that deep enough for Mr. Lee had worked with and made a brilliant script of a real Hulk movie instead of selling us his father issues with The Hulk? Dumbing down a superhero movie becuse you understimate your audience is on the same line that changing it completely expecting the audience not noticing because you are also understimate them as well, even if is like you said brilliant. Comic books heroes had not been around for so many years because they have stupid mindless explosions with guys on thigh clothing delivering cliché lines. They had been around because in the mix of all that there is drama, comedy, romance, action and a human drama that strikes a cord with many of us in many levels. Is hard to equilibrate all that into a movie but we appreciate when someone at least tries to achieve that even if is a so so director instead of just ignore it and go for whatever they want to tell at the time. So next time any of you feel like accusing us of single minded stupid crowds remember we love superheroes because at least they are superhero movies some are good some are bad but if every one involved tried to pay respect to the material we can forgive many things. Mr, Lee didn’t do that and that is what made his movie hated and this hate will grow up now in the light of the new movie because everyone will be wide awake of what he tried to do. The Incredible Hulk may not be award winning material but is heart winning material. I know that counts little for some “artists” but is not a stupid thing to ask, at least is not for me. We know when we want to deal with the complexities of the human nature sitting on a coffee shop trying to reach to that wall that our father is and when we want to deal with them with a big green giant turning a car into boxing gloves. Is stupid to be able to choose to want to choose?
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Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By sjcaustenite 1 June 7, 2009 09:50:35 PM
Well said--anyone who's ever read comics with the Hulk in them know that, except for a few periods now and then, the Hulk has always been about the demon inside that must be suppressed. Ang Lee works with this idea better than almost any director--ever. His Hulk is true to the original character, not the "Hulk smash" he become to please certain fans who can never be pleased. On top of this, we still get some brilliant action sequences, with the Hulks adventures in the desert, flinging tanks and leaping, just to escape. Brilliant stuff--and probably the best, most accurate Marvel adaption.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
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Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By deadpool360 1 August 17, 2009 09:31:09 PM
I actually started a rather large arguement in a university lecture with a guy about this film when he claimed it was actually shit, I started threatening violence, probably not that wisest way to spread the gospel of Hulk (or possibly the best) but I've never understood how people can slate it as it is an intelligent comic book film, why does it have to be two hours of Hulk Smash? Shame on the cinema going public and more specifically comic readers who bitch about not having intelligent comic book movies and then whinge about the Hulk. I salute you good sir for all ten of us Hulk fans who did enjoy this brilliant film.
Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
Posted By Faeldihn 1 August 25, 2009 01:40:18 PM
In fact, after years of arguments and clue gathering, I think I have a quite precise idea of who are the ones who disliked Ang Lee's Hulk: the ones who read the comic book coolest images of fight without ever trying to read the text, ever.
That was why I hated talking about the book with self-declared "fans" at that time, and also why the movie really enlightens the character background, making me really LOVE the Hulk character as I loved it in his first appearances in the comics who also was lately perverted by editor's presuppositions about the readers expectations, certainly asking for more fight, more crash, more shite.
شات . دردشة خليجية . دردشه
Posted By y222y1 1 September 27, 2009 06:50:19 PM
I hated talking about the book with self-declared "fans" at that time, and also why the movie really enlightens the character background, making me really LOVE the Hulk character as I loved it in his first appearances in the comics who also was lately perverted by editor's presuppositions about the readers expectations, certainly asking for more fight, more crash, more shite
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Posted By y222ycom 1 September 30, 2009 08:18:01 PM
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Re: Why Ang Lee's Hulk rules
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This is the effect that critics of Ang Lee's version of the Hulk can have on John Moore (and Simon, incidentally)...
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