Why Doctor Who is crying out for new monsters

News Simon Brew 8 Jul 2008 - 21:09
Black Dalek

Doctor Who's reliance on Daleks and Cybermen could prove to be an Achilles heel in years to come - unless Steven Moffat can do something about it...

Arguably the biggest challenge facing Steven Moffat as he sets about starting work on the fifth series of revived Doctor Who, set to be broadcast in 2010, isn’t the casting of the Doctor. Nor it is implementing a brand new story arc, even though Russell T Davies concluded many of his own storylines with Journey’s End.

Instead, he’s got to address the one thing that RTD didn’t manage to satisfactorily conquer – the introduction of genuinely interesting, regular villains.

The need was shown to some degree by the two-parter that’s just been broadcast, and the preview of this year’s Christmas special that accompanied it. Because when Doctor Who really needs to pull a ratings winner, or really wants to give the Doctor a major threat to face off against, it’s the Daleks or the Cybermen that are called into action. Sometimes both.

After all, in the four series of Doctor Who that Russell T Davies has overseen, three have ended with a fight against one of the Doctor’s two deadliest foes. The series that didn’t, the third, instead brought back The Master for what proved to be a damp squib of a season finale.

But this currently leaves Moffat with even fewer options than Davies for big villains to revive. With Davros, the Daleks, The Master, the Sontarans, Autons and Cybermen out already, the show’s long heritage doesn’t have a box office villain of that might remaining to pull out from the archives. Sure, there are some great foes that could and should be happily re-explored, from the Ice Warriors and the Rastan Robot, through to even the Silurians and – if you were feeling brave – the Rani. But none of these have the proven attraction and track record as the aforementioned A list of foes.

The suspected option is, therefore, that Moffat will recycle one of the above in some way, simply because he has little choice. The cover of the Radio Times, after all, demands something to help sell its early summer issues. But the show really needs some fresh monster blood, and it needs it soon, else it’s going to take something really special to break the show out of its Dalek-Cybermen-Dalek cycle. And with each appearance of either of those, there’s only so far you can push the level of threat, and find new things to say, before you get to the inevitable ‘everybody sort of lives’ ending.

Russell T Davies and his team, to their credit, did try, and it was Moffat who consistently came up with the creepiest villains. Most, however, could only be used once. The boy in the gas mask and the fearsome angels you couldn’t imagine working as effectively again, while the clockwork monsters weren’t the highlight of The Girl In The Fireplace. And while the shadows from Silence In The Library we’d love to meet again, there’s not an awful lot more you can say about a shadow than was already revealed in the two-parter. Plus, they’d make crappy action figures, which wouldn’t be lost within the corridors of the BBC.

Of the non-Moffat creations, the Slitheen we’ve already met a couple of times and have no urge to do so again. The Ood? Not bad, and perhaps the strongest candidates, but again, you wonder if there’s only so much more you could do with them. They do have an interesting mish-mash of personalities that does at least offer some scope, though.

From the other created villains, the one that positively demands further exploration is the mysterious, unresolved creature that appeared in Midnight. The irony there, however, is that it was the mystery of the monster that made it interesting. Surely if you start giving it a name and a backstory, the menace is going to dilute? And again, there's merchandising that inevitably needs to be considered.

The Family Of Blood, too, could perhaps be sought out again, even though their story was wrapped up quite tightly. There’s a backstory worth looking at there, though, even if they’re unlikely to be the kind of cavalier monster that a big season finale would demand. And what about River Song or Jenny? One of those could prove to be a villain, potentially?

Then there’s the Adipose? No thanks. Pig people? Nope. The Hath? Possibly. Cat people? No. The Judoon? We liked ‘em, but as they go to the highest bidder, they’re not villains right now in the conventional sense. The Editor? No. And soon enough, you come to the end of the list.

Season five, our guess, is likely to feature at least two out of three of Daleks, Cyberman and The Master, and short of bringing back the kind of Renegade vs Imperial Dalek war of old, it’s going to be a ripe old challenge to dig out much new to say about any of them. Unless we can have a full episode of the Daleks in Germany, of course.

But then this is Steven Moffat’s chance to leave a real mark on Doctor Who, long after he’s moved onto his next job. For his hit-rate of scary monsters is good, and if he does stumble upon on the next Daleks, then not only will he earn himself eternal thanks from BBC Worldwide, but he might just improve and broaden the show for many years to come thereafter.

Heck, we might even get to a final episode where, half way through, you still have little idea what’s going to happen next…

Check out the new and ever growing Doctor Who page at DoG, where we are marshalling all the Who content at the site, including interviews, DVD and episode reviews, lists, opinions and articles on our favourite time traveller.

 

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We have seen quite enough Daleks and Cybermen for now. My heart sank when it became apparent that the Cybermen were back for the Christmas edition. I am not sure I want a regular reoccurring villain and aside from the first appearance of the above did not highly rate the reappearance. What I want to see is good stories and meaningful characters and even as a long term fan I am not precious about the old characters and stories.

There are a lot of old Who bad guys that have a lot of potential as well. The Sea Devil and Silurians could easily be bought back, with the idea of sentient dinosaurs living in pockets of caves or underground being quite an interesting idea to explore. Moffatt could also bring back the Ice Warriors which again coulc provide an interesting enemy, with a little tweak these could provide a good Klingon like set of warrior bad-guys who would also make good opposition fot the Judoon. On the new 'Who' front we also have the set of aliens from various races who were cameoed in the Cassandara based season 1 episodes - there could be some good potential there. I suppose if Moffett is really desperate he could bring back the Krotons, Sil or even the the Bertie Bassett monster ( shudder)

They could have another design a monster competition on Blue Peter I mean that last one brought us the Amazing Absorbalov, wow i imagine the possibilities.

With regards to the Bertie Bassett monster that scared the crap out me when i was 6.

Personally I'm for inventing new monsters than flogging to death the ones of old. Creativity is not dead, it's alive and thriving and exciting - I mean, look at the monster in Cloverfield! I suspect few people have ever seen anything like that before on film or tv. So they should employ some expert monster makers and get cracking. One other suggestion would be that, if they do bring back the daleks and cybermen, why not completely overhall them and give them a new look? I think the cybermen in particular could do with stripping down, being less clunky and more efficient, and maybe painted black. Wearing the faces of their victims? Maybe.

I for one never tire of seeing Daleks although it does piss me off the way they are continually wiped out at the end of every story they appear in, they should remain a consistent threat in the universe, taking over planets & only sections of the Daleks should be defeated by the Dr upon their encounters. I also never tire of Dalek dialogue & would love to see the Daleks plotting & scheming as we seemed to get in the Hartnell days.

But yes the series does need to create new & interesting races, not necessarily monsters, but interesting & credible threats & I really hope that with the Moff taking over the series will grow up a bit & stop stretching credibility. Let's see the Judoon get their orders, let's see the Ood at home, Who has a fine batch of monster & characters that can work brilliantly just by giving them more believable characters. (Kandyman excepted!!!)

Yeah Hey,

I think that coming up with new " God's Gift To Satan " enemies for the doctor to face off with are fucking easy. Genius Steals ? Sweet ! Star Trek who do they deal with on semi regular basis ? Borg ? Bastards !!! Those things are Daleks !!! Steal my Daleks, I'm going steal your Q !!! Okay so we've got an omnipotent force of universe who able to play universe like baby piano ! Gotta be timelord but not an evil timelord like Master, Rani, more of dick !!! Like the Doctor ! Only where Doctor doesn't intentionally dick with time, he does, because he can ! So we 've got Tardis landing in London, doctor going " Hahaha told you twenty eight times the charm, look, London, 2010. Home Of 'Our Glorious Leader Mikhail Buckrenez ?' That's Lie ! " So the Doctor has landed in London and realised that in this London, Hitler won World War Two in 1947, America collapsed into civil war in 1986, Soviets invaded Europe in 1998, driving the Nazi Empire back to edges of Britain, where Doctor has now landed literally in middle of world war three ! Who did this ? Okay we know who did it, it's just dude needs a name and maybe we'll give guy some kind link to some other random bad guy Doctor has dealt with before, fuck like Omega !!! Yeah Omega !!! We can make out he was another Timelord like Omega who not only was able to escape from the same prison they put themselves into he has now absorbed some time vortek and is able to travel time and space without need tardis. That will explain his surprise abilty to "Pop" in and out of screen like Q does on Star Trek !!! Hey wasn't Omega all invisible like under his helmet ?!? Man I know we'll make him have floating head, a head without neck and hands, hands without arms, that will look way cool ! Now what do you call him ? Alpha ?!? Nah ... Amiga !!! Awesome !!! And we also got Nazi's, Soviets, I know let's go nuts !!!! Let's get third army in there !!! Give Amiga crack team of super robot ninja's that throws shit !!! Like those robots the third doctor dealt with in five doctors, that also had abilty to vanish in and out of nowhere !!! That and they had no face and that's scary beyond reason ! All you've got to do now is like all good episodes, is let characters write story !!! You have doctor forced to go back in time to fix the fundmental point in time Amiga changed, while leaving his assistant behind, to dress up as doctor, and be chased by Amiga, his army of super robot ninja's, in the middle of battle in London, between the Nazi's and Soviets ! Suh - weet !!! You can have the Doctor again after fixing the problem coming back and trapping Amiga ( Yeah hang on, Amiga is copyright protected ?!? Amega pronounced 'Amiga' ) in some time loop that's just long enough for him to relive his defeat at Doctor hands over and over and over and over again !!! Guys what do you think ? Do you think I've got something ? Tell Me ;-)

And Hey,

Sea Devils ! Why not have mutant race of cousins that live in clouds, that come down and take people ? Fuck ten year olds, this would scare the crap out of the cat ! Years from now, there will be forty year old virgins on the phone to a British helpline, going I can't go outside, the bad clouds are scaring me !!! Air Demons !!! We can call them Air Demons and okay I'm gonna stop now ...

Not being a Who fan as long as UK viewers, I don't have intimate knowledge of the Who villains. But I think the question should be: what makes a good villain? I'm thinking back through my favorite TV shows and movies, scifi or not, to cull together a list of traits that make for compelling villainhood. Doctor Who, like all good fantasy TV (Buffy, Angel, X-Files) needs two kinds of villain: recurring and guest. I'd be interested to see what DoG and Doctor Who fans can come up with

Why not do an AvP: Requiem and combine a Dalek with a Cyberman? Cyberleks! Dalmen! It can't fail. When do I get my commission?

I've worked out that Torchwood is for...

If you notice, Torchwood has had a lot of new baddies - let's face it, in order for it to have a genuinely seperate identity it needs them. Thing is, some of them have been pretty good and nicely sinister. Fairies that steal Kids? Sleeper agents with stinking great sword arms? These are only two examples of genuinely creepy and scary monsters. Why not use them in Doctor Who instead of CSI Cardiff?(have you seen all those aerial shots of the bay?) Better yet, use Torchwood as a proving ground for new ideas. Now that Mickey and Martha appear to be joining, there's potential for some good crossover action there.

daleks cybermen daleks cybermen and so on. Might be interesting in the new moffatt era that we could go down the psychological path and mess with the doctors mind a perfect example of which is face of evil in the baker era this would make better use of Davids acting skills rather than just having to run all the time and would be well scary. A cheap shot i know but i was eating a pot noodle this week and i held a spoonfull up and said to my mate look its dalek caan he laughed but sad to say this is what we've come to.On the over hand bring back the master and please god let davros have escaped played by the brilliant Julian Bleach

Totally agree with the need for new monsters, but as far as recycling old monsters goes I still think there's work to be done on the big three. Personally I was annoyed that the old Imperial vs Renegade Dalek storyline wasn't finished off (presumably they all got caught up and destroyed in the Time War, and the one that 'fell through time' to end up in series one's 'Dalek' was, for some reason, not a member of either side), but I understand the need to just start over with the Daleks - explaining the histories of the two factions and why they're at war would have alienated the new viewers.

However, when the Cybermen returned in series two it was always made clear that they came from a parallel world (even though they did make their way through to our version of Earth in the series finale). So whatever happened to the original Cybermen? What we've always needed, but never had, is a Cybermen origins story (call it 'Genesis of the Cybermen' to go with Tom Baker's 'Genesis of the Daleks' if you will). When the Cybermen were introduced in 'The Tenth Planet' we learned they were from Earth's twin planet, Mondas, which had, somehow, moved away from Earth, out of the solar system, but had lost power and returned to steal power from Earth. Why not have a story set on Mondas set years before this, telling the story of the humans that lived on Mondas and how and why they started replacing parts of their bodies with cybernetics. There's a Doctor Who audio story that goes something along these lines that could perhaps be the basis.

I think that "Discrespective" has hit on something.....STEAL!!

I think his brief one line idea about a "Q" from Star Trek would make an amazing villain that could REALLY challenge the Doctor for real!

Someone that can mess with time & space & set challenges for the doctor would be ideal!

After all, Start Trek ripped off the Cybermen for their "Borg" characters (don't deny it Roddenberry & Berman), yes I know that Rodenberry is dead, & remember that Star Trek admired Doctor Who & even included all the actors in one episode of Next Generation!!

Also, what about the ZYGONS???? Even Tennant said he loved them & the critics did too!!!

But ENOUGH OF THE BLOODY DALEKS & CYBERMEN PLEEEEEEEEAAAAAASE!!!!

AND I am a MASSIVE Whovian!!!

xx

Why does everyone go on about the Baker era when there was so much before. Oh yes, I know, because you weren't born yet.


Well for me, the Ice Warriors and The Abominable Snowmen scared the bejeez out of me, (even more than the Daleks)

i am sure they should bring the rani and the raston warrior great and the silurans and sea devils good have a good apperance i would also like to see more of the autouns and bring back the cybermen (they did not appear in serise 3 or 4)but i do agree we need new monsters :not that they would be a popular as the yeti or zygons but hey let's give it a try

We have seen quite enough Daleks and Cybermen for now. My heart sank when it became apparent that the Cybermen were back for the Christmas edition. I am not sure I want a regular reoccurring villain and aside from the first appearance of the above did not highly rate the reappearance. What I want to see is good stories and meaningful characters and even as a long term fan I am not precious about the old characters and stories.

There are a lot of old Who bad guys that have a lot of potential as well. The Sea Devil and Silurians could easily be bought back, with the idea of sentient dinosaurs living in pockets of caves or underground being quite an interesting idea to explore. Moffatt could also bring back the Ice Warriors which again coulc provide an interesting enemy, with a little tweak these could provide a good Klingon like set of warrior bad-guys who would also make good opposition fot the Judoon. On the new 'Who' front we also have the set of aliens from various races who were cameoed in the Cassandara based season 1 episodes - there could be some good potential there. I suppose if Moffett is really desperate he could bring back the Krotons, Sil or even the the Bertie Bassett monster ( shudder)

They could have another design a monster competition on Blue Peter I mean that last one brought us the Amazing Absorbalov, wow i imagine the possibilities.

With regards to the Bertie Bassett monster that scared the crap out me when i was 6.

Personally I'm for inventing new monsters than flogging to death the ones of old. Creativity is not dead, it's alive and thriving and exciting - I mean, look at the monster in Cloverfield! I suspect few people have ever seen anything like that before on film or tv. So they should employ some expert monster makers and get cracking. One other suggestion would be that, if they do bring back the daleks and cybermen, why not completely overhall them and give them a new look? I think the cybermen in particular could do with stripping down, being less clunky and more efficient, and maybe painted black. Wearing the faces of their victims? Maybe.

I for one never tire of seeing Daleks although it does piss me off the way they are continually wiped out at the end of every story they appear in, they should remain a consistent threat in the universe, taking over planets & only sections of the Daleks should be defeated by the Dr upon their encounters. I also never tire of Dalek dialogue & would love to see the Daleks plotting & scheming as we seemed to get in the Hartnell days.

But yes the series does need to create new & interesting races, not necessarily monsters, but interesting & credible threats & I really hope that with the Moff taking over the series will grow up a bit & stop stretching credibility. Let's see the Judoon get their orders, let's see the Ood at home, Who has a fine batch of monster & characters that can work brilliantly just by giving them more believable characters. (Kandyman excepted!!!)

Yeah Hey,

I think that coming up with new " God's Gift To Satan " enemies for the doctor to face off with are fucking easy. Genius Steals ? Sweet ! Star Trek who do they deal with on semi regular basis ? Borg ? Bastards !!! Those things are Daleks !!! Steal my Daleks, I'm going steal your Q !!! Okay so we've got an omnipotent force of universe who able to play universe like baby piano ! Gotta be timelord but not an evil timelord like Master, Rani, more of dick !!! Like the Doctor ! Only where Doctor doesn't intentionally dick with time, he does, because he can ! So we 've got Tardis landing in London, doctor going " Hahaha told you twenty eight times the charm, look, London, 2010. Home Of 'Our Glorious Leader Mikhail Buckrenez ?' That's Lie ! " So the Doctor has landed in London and realised that in this London, Hitler won World War Two in 1947, America collapsed into civil war in 1986, Soviets invaded Europe in 1998, driving the Nazi Empire back to edges of Britain, where Doctor has now landed literally in middle of world war three ! Who did this ? Okay we know who did it, it's just dude needs a name and maybe we'll give guy some kind link to some other random bad guy Doctor has dealt with before, fuck like Omega !!! Yeah Omega !!! We can make out he was another Timelord like Omega who not only was able to escape from the same prison they put themselves into he has now absorbed some time vortek and is able to travel time and space without need tardis. That will explain his surprise abilty to "Pop" in and out of screen like Q does on Star Trek !!! Hey wasn't Omega all invisible like under his helmet ?!? Man I know we'll make him have floating head, a head without neck and hands, hands without arms, that will look way cool ! Now what do you call him ? Alpha ?!? Nah ... Amiga !!! Awesome !!! And we also got Nazi's, Soviets, I know let's go nuts !!!! Let's get third army in there !!! Give Amiga crack team of super robot ninja's that throws shit !!! Like those robots the third doctor dealt with in five doctors, that also had abilty to vanish in and out of nowhere !!! That and they had no face and that's scary beyond reason ! All you've got to do now is like all good episodes, is let characters write story !!! You have doctor forced to go back in time to fix the fundmental point in time Amiga changed, while leaving his assistant behind, to dress up as doctor, and be chased by Amiga, his army of super robot ninja's, in the middle of battle in London, between the Nazi's and Soviets ! Suh - weet !!! You can have the Doctor again after fixing the problem coming back and trapping Amiga ( Yeah hang on, Amiga is copyright protected ?!? Amega pronounced 'Amiga' ) in some time loop that's just long enough for him to relive his defeat at Doctor hands over and over and over and over again !!! Guys what do you think ? Do you think I've got something ? Tell Me ;-)

And Hey,

Sea Devils ! Why not have mutant race of cousins that live in clouds, that come down and take people ? Fuck ten year olds, this would scare the crap out of the cat ! Years from now, there will be forty year old virgins on the phone to a British helpline, going I can't go outside, the bad clouds are scaring me !!! Air Demons !!! We can call them Air Demons and okay I'm gonna stop now ...

Not being a Who fan as long as UK viewers, I don't have intimate knowledge of the Who villains. But I think the question should be: what makes a good villain? I'm thinking back through my favorite TV shows and movies, scifi or not, to cull together a list of traits that make for compelling villainhood. Doctor Who, like all good fantasy TV (Buffy, Angel, X-Files) needs two kinds of villain: recurring and guest. I'd be interested to see what DoG and Doctor Who fans can come up with

Why not do an AvP: Requiem and combine a Dalek with a Cyberman? Cyberleks! Dalmen! It can't fail. When do I get my commission?

I've worked out that Torchwood is for...

If you notice, Torchwood has had a lot of new baddies - let's face it, in order for it to have a genuinely seperate identity it needs them. Thing is, some of them have been pretty good and nicely sinister. Fairies that steal Kids? Sleeper agents with stinking great sword arms? These are only two examples of genuinely creepy and scary monsters. Why not use them in Doctor Who instead of CSI Cardiff?(have you seen all those aerial shots of the bay?) Better yet, use Torchwood as a proving ground for new ideas. Now that Mickey and Martha appear to be joining, there's potential for some good crossover action there.

daleks cybermen daleks cybermen and so on. Might be interesting in the new moffatt era that we could go down the psychological path and mess with the doctors mind a perfect example of which is face of evil in the baker era this would make better use of Davids acting skills rather than just having to run all the time and would be well scary. A cheap shot i know but i was eating a pot noodle this week and i held a spoonfull up and said to my mate look its dalek caan he laughed but sad to say this is what we've come to.On the over hand bring back the master and please god let davros have escaped played by the brilliant Julian Bleach

Totally agree with the need for new monsters, but as far as recycling old monsters goes I still think there's work to be done on the big three. Personally I was annoyed that the old Imperial vs Renegade Dalek storyline wasn't finished off (presumably they all got caught up and destroyed in the Time War, and the one that 'fell through time' to end up in series one's 'Dalek' was, for some reason, not a member of either side), but I understand the need to just start over with the Daleks - explaining the histories of the two factions and why they're at war would have alienated the new viewers.

However, when the Cybermen returned in series two it was always made clear that they came from a parallel world (even though they did make their way through to our version of Earth in the series finale). So whatever happened to the original Cybermen? What we've always needed, but never had, is a Cybermen origins story (call it 'Genesis of the Cybermen' to go with Tom Baker's 'Genesis of the Daleks' if you will). When the Cybermen were introduced in 'The Tenth Planet' we learned they were from Earth's twin planet, Mondas, which had, somehow, moved away from Earth, out of the solar system, but had lost power and returned to steal power from Earth. Why not have a story set on Mondas set years before this, telling the story of the humans that lived on Mondas and how and why they started replacing parts of their bodies with cybernetics. There's a Doctor Who audio story that goes something along these lines that could perhaps be the basis.

I think that "Discrespective" has hit on something.....STEAL!!

I think his brief one line idea about a "Q" from Star Trek would make an amazing villain that could REALLY challenge the Doctor for real!

Someone that can mess with time & space & set challenges for the doctor would be ideal!

After all, Start Trek ripped off the Cybermen for their "Borg" characters (don't deny it Roddenberry & Berman), yes I know that Rodenberry is dead, & remember that Star Trek admired Doctor Who & even included all the actors in one episode of Next Generation!!

Also, what about the ZYGONS???? Even Tennant said he loved them & the critics did too!!!

But ENOUGH OF THE BLOODY DALEKS & CYBERMEN PLEEEEEEEEAAAAAASE!!!!

AND I am a MASSIVE Whovian!!!

xx

Why does everyone go on about the Baker era when there was so much before. Oh yes, I know, because you weren't born yet.


Well for me, the Ice Warriors and The Abominable Snowmen scared the bejeez out of me, (even more than the Daleks)

i am sure they should bring the rani and the raston warrior great and the silurans and sea devils good have a good apperance i would also like to see more of the autouns and bring back the cybermen (they did not appear in serise 3 or 4)but i do agree we need new monsters :not that they would be a popular as the yeti or zygons but hey let's give it a try

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موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
موقع دردشة شات دردشه 


موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
موقع دردشة شات دردشه 


موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
موقع دردشة شات دردشه   
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى


 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى 
 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى   
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى


 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى   
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى


 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى   
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى


 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى   
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى


 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى   
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى


 Ù…نتديات موقع منتدى  
منتديات موقع منتدى 
شات صوتي دردشة صوتية 

شات صوتي
دردشة صوتية


شات صوتي دردشة صوتية  
شات صوتي
دردشة صوتية
   شات صوتي دردشة صوتية  
شات
صوتي دردشة صوتية
  


موقع الفنان 
موقع الفنان  مواقع
انترنت  مواقع انترنت 
مواقع انترنت  مواقع
انترنت
  مواقع انترنت 
مواقع انترنت


دردشة موقع  
دردشة موقع    شات 
موقع  شات  موقع 
الانديه السعوديه  الانديه
السعوديه

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