HMV goes into administration

News Simon Brew 15 Jan 2013 - 06:28

The UK's final big music and movie retailer has called in the receivers, as the end for HMV looks in sight...

As had been feared for some time, the last music and DVD big chain retailer on the British high street is facing a bleak future, with the announcement that administrators have been called in to HMV.

HMV has been struggling for a couple of years, and the chain's final straw appeared to come with a disappointing trading period before Christmas. Fears for the future of HMV were heightened with the beginning of a sudden 25% off sale in stores and online over the past week, and according to the Financial Times, suppliers refused to help HMV with its funding problems again over the past few days. That's led to the appointment of Deloitte as administrators for the business. So, straight away, that's a few million that has to be found just to keep them happy.

HMV has 239 stores in the UK and Ireland, employing over 4000 staff, and the demise of the chain will bring to an end the era of the big music and movie retailer on the British high street. It's hard to see any way forward for the business, with downloads - both legal and illegal - the preferred way for many to get hold of their music and movies. Holding thousands of items of physical stock simply no longer makes economic sense. The biggest complaint we've heard aimed at HMV over the past year or two was that it was too expensive, yet that's the cost it's incurred by holding stock at hand in the first place.

Many of us have certainly had ups and downs with HMV over the years, but the loss of the chain will certainly be felt very keenly. Unless a miraculous rescue package is found, or Deloitte finds a way to keep things going once it's paid itself a fat fee, this latest big HMV sale will sadly be its last ahead of one last big sell-off.

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You've hit the nail on the head with one criticism. HMV pricing was just way above anybody else. That's what happens when you have such a massive high street portfolio as they did. However, there's so many different variables that have contributed to HMV's decline. Its not just pricing or technology. Investing in music venues probably wasn't a great idea in hindsight and ultimately they've paid the price for being blinkered. There are 1000s of independent record/video stores who are/were far more deserving of support than HMV.

Good luck to the 4000 staff.

It's a real shame, I loved wasting my lunch hours browsing before buying in the Oxford street store, but you're right, the prices were too high for whatever reason (example, Pans Labyrinth was £30 on blu ray when I went in looking for it recently, madness, ended up getting it online for £6). Sadly it just makes more financial sense to buy online now.

They had to turn a profit but it often seemed excessively expensive outside of sales. even other high street stores were significantly cheaper. With Woolworths, Zavvi nd our price going the writing had been on the wall for this business model yet HMV never seemed to know how to change. Now with Play dot com shutting its retail business it looks like if we want anything outside of the charts then Amazon will be the only option.

Unfortunately this is the way of the high street now. Internet shopping is great but you can't 'browse' in the familiar sense of the word. The problem with the high street is we look for what we want and then go and buy it cheaper online. With the overheads that high street shops have they just can't compete. The government needs to look at business rates and do what it can to persuade big names back to the high street (if it's not too late already).

GAME will be the next to go, I recently raised the issue of their pricing with their customer service team, as their website has been advertising many top titles at certain prices (Hitman absolution was £19 and Far Cry 3 - £22.49 on their site), after popping down to my local store both were around 35% higher on the shelf (Hitman £26, FC3 £30 - Hitman has now gone up to £35 in store) There was no mention that this was a web only price and I argued that they are deliberately misleading potential customers. On the same day that Hitman had gone up to £35 in GAME stores, Asda a few shops down, were selling it for £25!
If you are going to be competitive on price, make it consistent across the board.

Agreed, I saw the price for Far Cry 3 online, thought 'Im having some of that', went intot town at lunchtime to find it was £30 in store, ened up buying it as I thought oh well Im here now, but it still left a bad taste in my mouth.

Its the local councils that set the rates i believe. Good luck getting any sense out of any of them. They're busy putting up rates in the small seaside town i live in on the kent coast there by forcing local independant business owners out and allowing an influx of chains to pour in whilst at the same time theyre constantly telling us via the local paper to 'support local businesses', its infuriating.

I used to make a point of going into HMV to buy a DVD every week when I was younger. But then the prices just became unsustainable once supermarkets and online shopping became the norm.

Sadly the loss of HMV is much the same as all the traditional pubs that are closing: everyone laments their loss, but no-one actually goes in them and spends money anymore.

Amazon are currently selling Hitman Absolution for £18.99 delivered against GAME's £35 in store price. With products which are identical, why pay more?, plus for me to drive and park costs another £5 if I was going to game or HMV. All businesses have to offer their customers a reason to use them over another. GAME, HMV etc have failed to do this for sometime over supermarkets or online retailers.

Yep, snagged Hitman for £18.99 in sainsburys yesterday (along with the ultimate superman blu ray collection for £12), it seems the Game board of directors are hellbent on driving the business into the ground.

HMV aggressively put all of the independent stores out of business (or bought them - e.g. fopp). Once they had a monopoly over the high-street they stopped caring about the consumer. Crap unwanted stock piled in the isles - charts a mess and ridiculous prices (£25 for a blu-ray anyone? anyone??). I can't be sad to see HMV go. I was sad to see all of the independent stores go and it's a damn pity HMV had to ruin them before it realised it had no business plan. They did exactly the same thing to Waterstones when they acquired it - turned it into a large WHSmith filled with James Cordon's dull-as-hell life story. Perhaps we can get a few independent music, video or book-stores like fopp back on the high-street again. Or perhaps HMV died just too slowly and at just the wrong time.

Another example of management incompetance and its the workers who suffer. Did they REALLY think they could charge so much money for their stuff when online retailing was taking off.

It didn't take a genius to work out that they had to compete with online stores and they had a great opportunity to do so and bring people take to the high street from behind their computers but they got greedy.

As many of you rightly say below, their business model was a joke in the latter years. They rinsed the punters for daft money for DVD's (£20 a pop when they first emerged as a format). Amazon et al struck the first blow and digital media/downloading is what has really done for them.
I sold all my DVD's at a CEX a few weeks ago. I got just under £200 (what I spent on buying them doesn't even bear thinking about) and I felt lucky to get that much. DVD's will be the next big landfill favourite.
Having said that, I shall miss going to HMV in Bromley to buy the new Depeche Mode 12" the day it came out:) <<*shows age*

I'm always surprised their business model even worked in earlier years. When I used to buy odd videos & CDs 10-15 years ago I don't recall ever picking anything up at HMV - they were always priced higher than Virgin Megastore, Woolies and one chain that I can't even remember the name of! I was never sure then why anyone would spend over the odds on a product that'd be the same wherever it was purchased,

To everyone arguing about prices being too high... you're kinda missing the point. Sure on-line stores are cheaper but they don't have anything like the overhead that a bricks and mortar chain does and, in the case of Amazon at least, for some reason they can get rewarded for a business model that sacrifices almost all profit for market share. Supermarkets are cheaper but they're not supporting the entire business on selling media either, in fact a lot of the time those lines are loss leaders to bring customers into the store. Either way it's not a fair playing field and I can't help but feel it's the customer that will loose out in the end.

Don't get me wrong, I have no particular affinity with HMV but I'm going to be very sad to see what it represents go away. The high street is dying and I really believe this is a bad thing for everyone, even the on-line retailers, if for no other reason than it was still a fantastic way of discovering content. Oh, sure, people discovered it then bought cheaper on-line but they still did it. The thought of city centres that are nothing more than fast food, coffee shops and clothing retailers is a very depressing one. I suppose, being hopelessly optimistic for a moment, if enough of the big chains go bust it may force down rent and make it viable for high quality independent stores to return to the high traffic areas rather than being forced into small spaces down side streets. Fingers crossed anyway...

A lot of people on Twitter are moaning blaming Amazon's tax policy and web piracy for HMV's closure.

a) HMV have always been horribly overpriced which is more likely to drive people towards piracy.

b)As it stands Amazon legally don't have to pay the corporation tax everyone is complaining about (whether they should or not is another matter). Surely any profit making company is going to try to pay as little as legally possible? The government need to be held to account for allowing this loophole to exist in the first place rather than those who exploit it - as they are doing nothing wrong.

Yes - we should be willing to pay that little bit extra to keep the high street alive but it's financially harsh out there and I've only bought one DVD in the last 4 months - which is of no use to online or bricks and mortar retailers.

I predict WHSmith and Argos, along with the already struggling GAME, will be casualties this year.

I'll be sad if this means the end of the fopp store in Manchester. As far as HMV goes, I have to walk past every time. Whenever I went in their sales or deals were always full of crap and if you want anything that isn't in the sales, it's way over priced. Not just a quid difference to other stores, it was way more expensive than nearby stores/online. What reason were they giving for people to shop there?

unfortunately I've been using Amazon and Play for years as HMV just weren't competitive enough!
I mean what goes around comes around, as they wiped out OUR Price in the competitive stakes.
When they announced big sale last week, I though oohh goodie some deals, and there wasnt not 1 thing I wanted cheaper than Play or Amazon.
As a company they deserve to go bust for not having that edge, but a big sorry and good luck to all the unfortunate staff that will lose their jobs

I'm going to London this weekend - will make my usual pilgrimage to Fopp. Will be very sad if it's my last time :(

and its not business rates that are killing them off, as big warehouse's have to pay them as well, its the cost of rent on the high streetb that kills them.
I work in Local Government and there are lots of business rates relief for small businesses to start up with, but the bigger and giant corps dont get these.
however Amazon with a warehouse still have to pay business rates, its rent might be cheaper per sqft in comparative to a high street shop

4,000 employees out of work, plus God knows how many agency staff, the job agencies and the suppliers who now won't be paid. A disaster.

It really is - and not to mention the thousands of people who were given gift vouchers for Christmas. Here's hoping they find a buyer.

HMV Bromley is a prime example of why the business has sunk. They've held the same location for many years in the town, and outlived Virgin Megastore and Zavvi. But when the chance arose to relocate to The Glades Shopping Centre in that brilliant spot, the head honchos refused the move. You could excuse that on financial grounds perhaps, but their reason was that they had held the same spot for decades and it was now an "iconic store on the Bromley High Street". Ha! The Bromley branch is very limited for space, and has no lift/escalator to reach the upstairs - which is where most of the DVD's are, especially now they have their overpriced technology department downstairs. The cramped shop was completely off-putting to anyone with a wheelchair or a pram, which is hardly the way to make more sales.

It'll be sad to see the store front empty and then see it become another 99p store or something, but they've driven their own nail into the coffin. Independent store Head has proved to be much cheaper than HMV here for the past couple of years - if they could get themselves a nicer spot, I suspect they'd do a roaring trade.

The age of monopolising the high street is over.

Which will likely be when Amazon subsequently start putting prices up too :( Is it really going to take the loss of every giant company that we currently know for these tycoons to realise that a monopoly over the markets is the biggest mistake you can make?

Sadly HMV actually own Fopp (bought them all in 2007) so if HMV goes, Fopp probably will too.

Same here - I used to go into HMV at lunchtimes and pick up the occasional bargain but usually mad prices (£19.99 for Beetlejuice BluRay) made me wary but since I don't work in the city anymore I'd have to pay £5 bus fare to get there as well as the inflated prices. Why do that when I can have the CD for less than the bus fare alone from Amazon or Play?

I know (hence the first set of brackets) - that's what im really sad for (excluding obviously, the job situation which is god awful). Fopp prove that you CAN still run this kind of business in the internet age. The stores are full of great stuff at great prices. In HMV you couldn't go 5 yards without tripping over a mountain of 007 box-set's for £20 more than Tesco stock them. Here's hoping the administrators find a future for Fopp.

I agree with everything everyone has said on here. Everyone is right and all have valid points.

My own input is as follows, way back in the mists of time (sometime around 1997) I went into HMV in the Metro Center and bought the Dusk Till Dawn Soundtrack Cd and the Friends Soundtrack CD for my wife. It came to £34 at the time. I was annoyed about the price, because even though I had a good job, it was expensive. £34 for two cds is expensive NOW never mind back in 97. So I went home and looked for other ways to get music etc. I ended up being one of the first people in my town (to my knowledge) to buy one of those new fangled CD burner drives for my pc and then I started copying what I wanted onto blank disk. I never bought another original CD again from that point on. Eventually fast broadband came along and to this day I still download what I want, film / music games etc for a number of reasons. One its too expensive to buy stuff, two most stuff is crap and I only watch it once, three its quicker and easier, I dont have hundreds of disks I have to find storage space for and four REGIONAL CODING. Its a farce. Just one of the latest examples... I was in HMV before Christmas late last year and they had posters and empty dvd rack space advertising DARK KNIGHT RISES coming soon....but I already had that film at home on my media PC and had done for a couple of months....So I did not buy it. They also did really stupid things like trying to sell a boxed set of Laurel and Hardy for £500!!! Five hundred quid for films made in the 1930s / 40s! Now I am not going to get into arguments about piracy, I know its wrong. But you will never stop people doing it. NEVER. For many reasons, only some of them listed above. I bet many of the younger members on here wont remember, that back in 70s people used to listen to the TOP 40 Charts on Radio 1 on a sunday night in the UK. They used to TAPE RECORD all the hit songs straight from the radio! Yep...it was going on back then too....then there was tape to tape music centers in the 80s, and CD burners in the 90s...in the 21st Century we have MP3, Bluray burners and torrents...its not going to change. Its a shame about HMV. I am very sad, but it was bound to happen. I always go in there even to this day, to look and YES I sometimes bought something obscure, because it was hard to find....I bought the BBC Drama the Nightmare Man a couple of years ago for example. What has annoyed me, and no doubt I will be called a hypocrite and it serves me right etc, but the fact is, I have a gift voucher that my Brother bought me for Christmas, that they now wont take. Heheheh I cant really complain because I have downloaded so much stuff over the last ten years, but what about all the people that have not, and are stuck with useless vouchers? According to the creditors its just tough luck, because they view the fact that a voucher is LOAN to the company and like any other LOAN to the company its been taken over and swallowed up by the debt. This is just utter rubbish! You have bought something from HMV via the voucher and just not gone in to pick it up yet! So they are in effect stealing the money from all the people with vouchers. Thats a disgrace no matter how you look at it. I am not worried, I can get anything I want thanks to the internet, but many people have been given these tokens for Christmas gifts, and they are now useless. In my home town there is now no real reason or need for me to visit the town center, because there is nothing there I need, or cant get online or a supermarket, so I dont need to pay the stupid prices for a car park. Councils have a large part of the blame in this, charging high rates for rent on buildings, then the government for all the red tape and business taxes, its no wonder its gone bust. In about 10 more years there will be nothing left in the UK for anyone to buy here. It will all come from big companies online and from abroad where it is cheaper to make and sell from. All the car companies here etc are owned by other countries, Nissan is Japanese etc and so on. Its a shame, but thats the way of it. Maybe now we might see small independent stores coming back in places selling cds etc but I doubt it. I wish the staff there the best of luck , but is going to be hard for them as jobs are scarce in the Uk...unless you want to work in Tesco or poundland. We will be back in recession before the end of this year I am sure...what a depressing way to start 2013 but so very predictable...thanks for reading.

if they close, then absolutely everything will go waaaaaay down in price, especially the boxset, which is kinda good, but it's still extremely sad that they might close :-( i've love and still love hmv for years and years now. it's been amazing. family go to braehead, i got to hmv, i go to glasgow, i go to both hmv's............BAD TIMES!!! :-(

Yep...Game are a stitch up too...as a side note I just finished Far Cry 3 the other day. Its a BRILLIANT game...the best I have played in years...I am just about to start on Assassins Creed 3 so that might be better I will have to wait and see...

If I were a big business type I would definitely vie for the Fopp brand when it goes on sale - without HMV it could become the most well known name on the street. I will be sad if my visit to London Fopp on Friday turns out to be my last ever.

Yes I bet Amazon start to sneak up prices...Waterstones was / is expensive...I wanted 2 books from Waterstones, both Hardback...it would come to about £38 and I got both of them for £18 from Amazon. Its just a no brainer for anyone with broadband / pc etc and internet skills. If Amazon and the others start getting greedy, Piracy will just increase more. The people in charge just dont seem to get it. They never do, they have degrees, business courses and managment skills and are qualified to the hilt, but just keep doing the same old thing and cant see the obvious..its utter madness. I bet half the people on here could manage a store better than them....

You're part of the problem pal, you'll get no sympathy round here.

A fair point, plus amazon only have to have the one warehouse (albeit pretty big) but as its no doubt on some business park in the middle of nowhere the rents etc can be kept competetive, like you say, HMV had all that prime high street square footage to cover the cost of, i dread to think what their rent out goings were. But that doesnt excuse the near suicidal pricing on some of their stuff. You adjust what the market will support dont you?. Im sure no one would object to paying a couple of pounds more than online, after all you cant beat that feeling of getting home with your new movie/cd and slapping it in your player, but man, they must have been nuts, i saw Spiderman 3 on blu ray in my local one before xmas for £25 (as well as Pans Labyrinth as i mention somewhere else). Who priced that up?. Who thought that would actually sell at that price?

HMV were not just a little bit more expensive, they were extortionate prices, often close to double what the products could be got for online, Doctor Who classic series DVDs would often be £20 on release when you could get them online for £11 or £12, nobody is going to fall for that kind of pricing.

Jesus, alright grandad!

Yep. Davros01 is a big part of the problem. We (the people who spend money on our entertainment) pay EXTRA to cover your theft. You push the prices up by limiting the market.
At least be a little bit ashamed and don't come bragging to us like your crime is victimless :(

Only 1 reason I'm gutted to see HMV go: the UK steel book market will effectively end, or at least be much much smaller.
I just really really hope they scrape by until the Sky fall blurays have been shipped. The only bluray I've been properly excited about for a while. And its a lovely looking case... That and the looper steelbook

Nothing to do with age Jamie. This kind of behaviour is theft. Plain and simple it is a crime.
To support this method of obtaining any kind of media is short sighted and stupid. Selfish behaviours that seem unfortunately on the increase.
I despise having to pay a higher price for music and film simply because petty criminals like Davros01 play a part in forcing up prices.
The sooner a method is found to trace and convict those guilty of such crimes, the better.

I couldnt agree more mate, the bloke in charge recentley took over, he came from........Jessops, who have just gone into administration, but no doubt once he's presided over this mess he'll go on to command a huge salary somewhere else. Thing that gets me is the directors will be alright wont they, they'll still have their big houses and flash cars, as usual its the front line people that suffer. The youngsters that make the business tick.

I feel sorry for the 4000 staff. I'm currently unemployed myself and getting a job is a pain in the ass.

agreed piracy ruins it for all! The reason HMV has gone under is purely that it didnt compete anymore when it could have. Simply HMV got complacent

The only time I've ever really shopped at HMV is when I've had a voucher for there. Sometimes I pick up the odd DVD for a few quid, but I often just go to CeX if I'm in town, or Amazon if I'm shopping online. Both are invariably cheaper. I know CeX's stuff is pre-owned, but it all works fine. It's like when Game went down the proverbial; their prices just aren't competitive enough. Hopefully the 4000 staff will find another job

To all who replied to me...I know. I was not looking for sympathy. I know Piracy is wrong etc etc...blah blah blah. I am not proud of it. However if I did not do that I would never see anything, play anything or hear anything. There is no excuse for paying high prices for music anymore. It does not wash. If you can get a blank Cd for example for a pound, then add on 1 / 2 pounds for the musician/s, 1 / 2 for distributing and producing it and 1 / 2 pounds for the shop, a cd album should cost at most £7 an album. But a lot of them dont. Anyway ok I am not here to argue about it. Thanks for not ripping me to shreds too much, but I wont be the only pirate on here and I am sure a lot of people have done it at some point. HMV has gone under for the same reasons Woolworths did...bad management and too much stock and not listening to what people wanted. I was in HMV this afternoon and talked to a couple of the staff and they said they had to find out about it from the Internet, no one had come and told them it was going under or what was going on. Another member of staff told me that they were not taking the vouchers "just for today" and he had no clue that they were not taking them full stop, even if a buyer is found they might not take the vouchers. I stated above it did not bother me, but a lot of people will have got them and they are all very annoyed. Does anyone else think its a bit underhand selling vouchers over the Christmas period when they knew they were in so much trouble and this was what was coming? About three years ago I re trained as a driving instructor. I signed up with a franchise with BSM in November 2009. They failed to tell me they had gone bust and were looking for a buyer, but still took my money and signed me up. In January / Feb 2010 it was anounced they had gone under and the AA had bought the entire company for a nominal sum of £1.
You could not make it up. I had no work / pupils from them in my first three months of being an instructor, despite it being written into my agreement that they would provide me with pupils. But I had to keep paying the franchise fees of £180 a week! Rip off....In the fourth month I threatened to sue them for breach of agreement and they released me from the franchise. I never did make a penny from being a BSM instructor in four months. But they made plenty out of me. This happened to me twice more over 2010 / 11 and in the end I gave up and went back into I.T. due to lack of work and the rip off fees that were rife in the industry. Another example of management shafting people, while the ones that do the job suffer. I really feel sorry for the staff in HMV and I hope they get a buyer for it...last I heard a few hours ago there were a couple of offers coming through, but they will have to shut stores. They dont need 1 in the Metro Center and 1 in Newcastle as well for a start....Thanks for reading again!

Sadly you have little idea of how much a RRP for a DVD is. Usually £20 is ALREADY lower. You need to buy in MASSIVE bulk (10000 plus) to get a discount that you could hope to sell as little as £12 and even then the profit would be negligible. Supermarkets sell new releases, often at a loss, to get people to buy food that will make them a huge profit instead. Online companies avoid tax, do not pay so many staff and avoid the overheads of running a brick and mortar store. Couple this with all the torrents freely available for new releases...
Yeah, try to run a music store yourself (I have!) it is not easy especially when all people want nowadays is everything at the cheapest possible cost.
This reply is not meant as a criticism, but I'm just fed up of people whinging about costs when they would rather fund a tax dodging company.

Given the ludicrous prices I'm surprised they kept going this long. The only reason I've given HMV a second look these last few years was to see what kind of gullible idiots where milling about in there.

You know what? I almost forgot about this, due to the back and fourth in my earlier posts....In HMV today, they are still asking you, and advertising for you to pre order games and films!!! For eample Pre Order Grand Theft Auto V due out "This Spring" which could be anytime from March to June.... Who the hell is going to Pre Order anything when the company is in administration!!!! What makes them think they will still be open in Spring?? And how can they be allowed to still advertise this service and still take peoples money????? Has anyone on here gone in there today or yesterday and pre ordered a game or a film???? Anyone??? If they wont honour gift vouchers they are hardly going to honour any pre orders if they shut!!! Also I just read that they knew they were going into administration and would not be honouring the gift vouchers but they were still happy to sell you some up to as late as yesterday the 15th Jan. It just gets worse and worse...the fact that the monkey from Jessops is now in charge is hardly going to boost confidence either.....

The piracy I can kind of understand, but christ man, use some paragraphs!

lol...ok will keep that in mind for next time....

Hehehe grandad? Not yet sonny boy...besides which I am still a lot younger than Johnny Depp, Jim Carrey ,George Clooney etc etc etc...

Sorry my friend...I was not trying to brag about it. Just trying to point out some of my reasons and thoughts. Anyway its all by the by, its not going to stop me, nor many other people I am sure, but I will shut up about it now if its annoying you. I would be very suprised if the fact of my downloads was the reason its closing though...

Okay, let's use that example shall we? Right now Doctor Who: The Krotons is sold by Amazon for £12.98 with free super saver delivery (advertised as 5 days). For arguments sake let's say HMV have it for £20 in-store. A quick look through Amazon's other sellers shows prices from £12.75 to £20.44 including delivery so HMV isn't as "extortionate" as you might think.

Now consider that the extra £7.02 has to pay for that disk to be shipped to the store, processed, security tagged and put on a shelf. It has to pay for the store staff to do that work, the shelf space it takes up while waiting to be sold and a very small percentage of the heating, lighting, rent and other costs involved with keeping the store open. It also, and I think this is very often overlooked, has to cover the cost of stolen items from the store - a problem on-line retailers simply don't have. Then consider that HMV have to turn a reasonable profit margin from every sale where Amazon can afford to take low single digits. In fact their average profit margin since 2011 is under 2%! No high street retailer could get away with that and Amazon can only manage it because of their sheer size and investor confidence in their land grab strategy.

There's one other thing that £7.02 pays for of course - convenience. If I want that item from Amazon delivered tomorrow the cost goes up to £18.97. If I want an evening delivery so I'll be here to collect it it's £27.97! Buying in-store means, assuming the item is in stock, I have it immediately. To some people, in some situations, that's worth paying extra for. Ultimately, of course, that's the point and customers are going to have to make that choice when it comes to the high street: will enough people pay for convenience and the more... uh, I guess 'tactile' is as good a word as any... experience of going to a shop and physically browsing to support a bricks and mortar store?

So you basically decide to steal media despite being able to pay for it and knowing full well there are other legal and cheaper methods to obtain it? Lovely... Sorry but I'll never understand that attitude, I LIKE paying for my media! I'm more than happy to pay for content that I enjoy and consider valuable enough to invest hours of my life in watching because, and this is a radical concept I know, I'd like them to make MORE content in the future!

I can sort of understand people downloading material who genuinely couldn't afford to pay for it - that's not really a lost sale and, let's face it, the morally decent ones tend to pay for it when they can afford to anyway. But deciding to download because it's too expensive according to some arbitrary limit you yourself set (according to your post below you actually put a value on the content of an album of 50p!) and trying to justify it as someone else's fault... no, that I'll never understand.

maybe the reason HMV are more expensive then Amazon and other retailers is because they actually pay their uk tax
we cant have our cake and eat it .

Look..let me put this to bed for everyone. I do it because I CANT AFFORD TO BUY EVERYTHING! OK??????????????????????? I have a mortgage and am struggling etc. I dont do it to be cool. I dont do it to be Robin Hood. I dont do it to sell them on and make money like lots of people do at car boot sales. I dont do it and then give stuff out free to my friends etc.

I dont own an IPAD. I dont even bother with a mobile phone or mp3 player much. I listen to music mostly on car journeys so I make disks of stuff I like for the car. I still buy DVDs when I can get them cheaply enough. I never bothered with Bluray as DvD is still pretty good. I imported a DVD player to the Uk back in 1999 BEFORE it became well known and widespread. Before you could buy dvds in HMV never mind renting from Blockbuster....I had to use a mains adaptor to make it work and buy my disks from abroad over the internet.

I have at last count 878 films on DVD. Everything from Starwars to The Matrix to stuff by Pixar. I am just not going to go out and buy them all again on Bluray. Especially when most of them are straight ports from DVD and the picture quality is no better. Classic example 1950s version of The Day the Earth Stood Still on Bluray for £25 when there was no such thing as a HD camera back in the 50s and no amount of restoration and clean up, can make detail appear that was never there in the first place! What do you think I am? Made of money? If I was stupidly rich I would buy lots more. But I am not...so I pirate stuff because its quick, easy, I can get it 3 - 4 months before its due out in the UK, I cant afford to buy all I want, or would like. I dont have any more space to store disks either. Then in another couple of years Bluray will be replaced with something in even more HD and Tvs will become HD + and the whole thing will start again.
I have a media pc in the living room and watch tv from that, watch iplayer if I need to, download films to it, and if they are good I keep them. If I think they are crap, I delete them. I went to see the Hobbit at the cinema. I will be buying a boxed set of it on DVD when it comes out, and I have downloaded the screener. I would have bought Prometheus, but it was not as good as I wanted so I downloaded it.

I pay my taxes, I pay my mortgage, I pay my VAT and Tax on Fuel, I dont mug people, I dont rape people, I dont do drugs, I dont even drink much. I am a sad pathetic human who lives a very dull life and it has not gone the way I wanted it to, but then again whose life turns out they way they want it perfectly?

The content of an Album is not worth only 50p....Jesus. I SAID that if they paid the musician £2 / 3 per DISK PRODUCED, then the same to the people that make and manufacture it, the PHYSICAL MEDIA, then the same to the Record company per disk, then the same to the SHOP then each disk / album should cost no more than £8 at the LOWEST. If you can buy 5 blank CDS in poundland for a POUND what do you think it costs them to make them???????????????????????????????

I know piracy is wrong, I know its not victimless etc etc, but I do it because if I did not, I would not be able to afford my chosen entertainment at all for when I am at home. And I can say for certain that lots and LOTS of people are doing the same thing. I dont want to fight ok? I can see your point of view. I respect your point of view. I just hope the above has helped you see why and what from my side. Even if you dont agree with it.
Finally I am now in my early 40s....I am no longer a young hip teen that is into pop music and film and will pop out and buy or download the latest stuff. I used to do that a lot. I have sort of grown out of it, and have all the music I like and want, as modern stuff / Simon Cowel crap just makes me want to pull my own ears off.

Sigh........I am sorry about HMV, I really am. I hope someone saves it because I want to be able to keep going in there and looking at T shirts and the other stuff they do, buy things when I can and save all the staff from the mess I have been in the last few years. But my downloading stuff is one drop in a very large sea...

Would you like me to go away and kill myself now in remorse? If you want to blame something and someone then the fault lies with HMV not adapting to the way things are, bad management and managers and non entities getting paid too much within the company, record / music / film companies charging way over the odds for the product and their greed and capitalism, most stuff being utter rubbish, supermarkets and Amazon selling cheaper, if they can do it why cant HMV? And yes somewhere in there is Piracy too.

Ok Den of Geekers.....I have used paragraphs this time! Thanks for reading again, if you dont agree, and all hate me. Peace!

Good points.... However going off on one again, have you thought about this argument. The Krotons came out in 68..Ok fair enough. Everyone around then paid for it with the BBC License fee. Thats what its for to pay for the TV etc on there. No VHS release of DVD back then.

So its been paid for once. Then it comes out on VHS years later and anyone who wants it, buys it, a Who fan who had never seen it yet pays for it again, despite the fact his parents have paid for it once already. So BBC gets paid twice for it, leaving out the costs to make the VHS Tape etc.

Then fast forward a few more years and out it comes again on DvD this time. Same thing happens again. Someone buys it and the BBC gets paid for it a THIRD time. Leaving out the costs for producing the DvD and getting it to the shops etc....

Fast forward to now and its still being sold on DvD for £12.98....thats £12.98 from Amazon. So the BBC are getting paid AGAIN AND AGAIN for something that YOU / US the public have paid for once with the License fee, and the fee the next year and the re releases and re releases etc etc.

Ok so you have to pay for the media that the Krotons is on, Blank sheet of printed paper - say for arguments sake its top quality £1 to print it, I can print one myself for that at least at home. So a mass production machine could do it at LEAST as cheap. Then the disk...pick up a pack of disks in poundland for a pound....so a dual layer disk is going to cost...erm...lets say £2 to be fair. Then a disk box for it all to go in, another £1.

So to make the physical media its going to cost about £4 at the outside. Then lets get it to the shops or Amazon....cost of petrol etc...say it cost another £4 to get it to point where its ready to go to the customer. Thats £8 so far. And they are selling it for £12.98 and its something thats now 45 years old...older even than I am. And they want £12.98 for it in amazon, and how much is it in the shops?????

There is no way they should be charging that much for something thats that old. Fair enough if its a brand new film, big budget with lots of stars and special effects etc. Fair enough charge £12 - £20 as needed for DvD or Bluray. But for a 45 year old Black and White Tv show that was never shot in DvD quality???? Hmmmmmmmm!

So my point to all this is a lot of the media / disks that are sold now, leaving aside Doctor Who are vastly over priced. Its not new technology anymore to make a DVD. The factories and machinery are now well established and they can run thousands off cheaply. All the tooling has now been paid for. They have no excuse that they can make to charge so much.

So if Amazon is selling the Krotons as an EXAMPLE for £13 near as damn it, how much is it PAYING to buy them in to sell????????

Its supply and demand I know, and thats capitalism and people have to make a living. But there is making a living and a profit, and then GOING WAY beyond to charge far too much. People have woken up to this and are going to where it is cheapest, rightly or wrongly because everything is so expensive.
I dont want to see shops etc go under at all. And my whole point about the License fee, is that anything put out by the BBC has been paid for once by everyone in said fee. They could release it on DvD for example, and make a small profit after the costs of making it on DvD. But they dont, they want to make a large profit, then change the media to something else and then make another large profit, and then do it again, and again and again...and people are happy to pay for something over and over again...thats mad.
I am just amazed that the BBC has not decided to re re release the entire Doctor Who collection on Bluray and charge £20 for each disk even if it was made almost 50 years ago, in black and white. Give it time and they just might.....

I sort of see where you're coming from.

I don't use pirate stuff myself, but I think a good rule of thumb is, would you buy the item if you could?

For example i have several friends who only download stuff they would have no intention of buying in the first place. Stuff that is only of middling quality, or peripheral interest to them.

That is not theft because it's not like nicking a tin of beans. You are not depriving someone else of that content. And if they are pleasantly surprised and end up liking what they've downloaded, usually they get the DVD/Blu-Ray.

Also, since money is tight for most people these days you can't buy everything. So you have to be selective in your choices.

This is quite a big thing when you think about it 'cause it's effectively saying that large swathes of the populace are cut off from art and culture, popular and otherwise.

It also calls into question how we see art and culture; the preserve of the few or available to all? Is piracy taking away a motivator for people getting a job? I don't know, but suspect this is something we're all gonna have to deal with a few more HMV's down the line.

Bottom line; If it's a great film/tv show etc, it sells. If it's given you any joy or pleasure you should be paying money to access it, to support those who made it and ultimately, to encourage more of the same.

Oh and Blu-rays are proof we have gone mad. I shall not convert from the DVD format until I see a SIGNIFICANT improvement in the next way technology evolves. I would therefore urge you to not bother with Blu-ray at all. Stop downloading them and smash all your old Blu-ray copies.

Perhaps we could all make a day of it, and add ours to the massive bonfire of unsold Jack and Jill Blu-rays HMV will surely be having.

At least it's an excuse to leave the house.
I

Blaming Amazons tax arrangements is just falling into the government propaganda I'm afraid. One of the things that has irritated the life out of me in recent months is all the crap about "they has x amount of billions in sales, so they should be paying x amount in corporation tax" you only pay tax on Profits. Amazons expenditures for many years were higher than their income, hence no profit to be taxed. eBay and google are much worse because they do turn a healthy profit.
HMV have been making a loss for the last few years, so they haven't had to pay any corp tax either.
If a plumber takes £100m in sales, but it costs him £99m in expenses, he only percentage of the £1m profit. News stories and David Camroon have not really touched on this side of it. Most large companies (except Apple and Google) have low profit margins compared to sales. Plus there are a great deal of financial instructions who are far far worse at avoiding taxes, but they are not names Joe Public would have ears of or care about.
It's our own HMRC rules say that companies can use the loopholes. The government tries to turn public opinion to make an extra few quid in revenue without having to do any lengthy investigation work or potentially damaging law changing.

One of the main factors are the suppliers to stores, (film companies, game publishers like activision etc). A friend of mine used to own an independent shop which sold music, films and games. The suppliers would charge such a large amount for new titles that for a £40 retail priced game, he would be paying close to £35 for it. Not a lot of room to move in regards to pricing.

Agreed, its way too expensive although some of the offers were good provided you wanted more than one or two dvds/blurays

Im afraid for me the convienice is itunes - no 80 minute round trip to the nearest HMV plus parking charges and streamed instantly. The cost doesnt bother me too much for this reason.

Whatever you say HMV is still hideously expensive, I look in there every couple of weeks or so and I literally cannot remember the last time I bought anything from there, everything is very very expensive. As for the bricks and mortar excuse the supermarkets are a lot cheaper.

I bought the Doctor Who Legacy collection for £15 from my local bricks & mortar Tesco for £15 - IIRC it was £25 in HMV.

Supply and demand, the DW DVDs sell very few copies, ~20,000 copies normally IIRC and I am quite happy to pay the £10-12 that you can usually get a new release for (Reign of Terror pre-ordered by me on Sendit for £11.99). as for the multi-release, would you be happy still be watching in VHS AKA Murk-o-vision? At least DW has not had VHS, VHS widescreen, VHS special edition, DVD SE, DVD SE widescreen, Theatrical edition & Blu-ray like Star Wars has so far with a 3d version no doubt coming out in a few years ago.

Davros01, the reason you're getting the flack is that you've made the inexcusable mistake of posting "how the world is." If something is available to copy, people will do, simple. But it's not the end of the world.

I've got several friends with gigs and gigs of downloaded films (99.9% crap) but also have bookcases groaning under the weight of DVDs & Blurays. In 20 years media consumption has gone through the roof and while there's been an increase in piracy, there's been a pro-rata increase in legal purchases. Go back 20 years and people would maybe a couple of videos a year. Today people seem to be buying that many a week.

Piracy didn't kill HMV; everyone else doing it cheaper did.

No you are right, I would not want to watch it in VHS anymore, as its just terrible compared to DVD and Bluray. You are right it is supply and demand, so they will charge whatever they can get away with. The point I was trying to make is everyone in the country has bought the right to watch Doctor Who with the L fee. So all they should be charging is for the costs to make the disks and get em to shops and maybe a small profit. They should not be charging that much for a black and white story thats so old. But at least they are out there for us to buy. I bet there is a Starwars 3D version coming to Bluray soon though....I wonder if Luca$ would still have anything to do with it?

Lol yes. Thanks for getting it. I do buy them when I can if its worth it. Like the Hobbit etc. I just cant buy everything I would like. Who can?

Thank you. Posting how the world is , is what I do best, and not everyone likes it, but someboby has to say it. I too have lots of disks "bookcases groaning under the weight of DvDs...." And you last line is exactly the point of it.
Piracy did not kill HMV, everyone else doing it cheaper did.
Never a set of truer words spoken.
I can take the flak, I just cant believe that there are people out there in this day and age so sweet and innocent that they have never pirated a thing in their lives. Or watched something at a mates thats been pirated. And they have a go at people that do, as if its them that are the music and film industry and they can somehow make a difference by having a go at pirates, and somehow people will magically stop because joe bloke has asked them to and said its wrong. Oh well.....yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.....

The bottom line....they were always way to expensive!!!....SUPERMARKETS WERE AND ARE CHEAPER...just a fact and everyone wants a good deal
its a shame hmv didnt see that till it was to late....feel sorry for the workers
but not for the bloody shareholders who squeezed the last life blood out of it

Im gradually selling all my dvds and books and going digital. I also have Netflix so apart from new releases im good.

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